Police appeal for information after £30,000 worth of damage to ticket machine

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

Outside our area, but an interesting item in view of the value of the damage caused - and all for nothing!  From the British Transport Police press release:

British Transport Police appeal for information after £30,000 worth of damage caused to ticket machine ^ Barnt Green

British Transport Police (BTP^▸ (British Transport Police)) officers are appealing for information after damage worth £30,000 was caused to a ticket machine at Barnt Green railway station.

Officers are asking any members of the public who witnessed any suspicious activity or behaviour at the station at around 12.30am on Wednesday, 4 January to come forward.

Detective Sergeant Shanie Erwin, one of the investigating officers, said: ^The driver of a Redditch-bound train spotted that a ticket machine on one of the platforms at Barnt Green station had been damaged.

^Officers attended and on arrival, it was discovered that the machine had been completely destroyed beyond repair in what would appear to be an attempted theft.

^We believe those responsible used a gas-powered oxy-acetylene torch to gain access to the inside of the machine.^

There was no money in the machine at the time, so the would-be thieves left empty handed.

However, train operator London Midland, which manages Barnt Green station, said the damaged machine will have to be completely replaced at a total cost of around £30,000.

Following the incident, BTP officers recovered four gas cylinders which they believe may be connected with incident.

Each of the four gas bottles has a different coloured plastic ring on its neck. One is red and blue, one is black and purple, a third is red and pink and the fourth is purple and green.

All four cylinders are currently undergoing forensic tests.

DS Erwin said: ^At this stage, it is unclear where these cylinders have come from so I am appealing for any individual or any business that has had any such items stolen recently, to come forward.

^I would also like to appeal to anyone who saw anyone who would not normally have access to such cylinders, or who spotted anyone acting in suspicious circumstances with gas cylinders like the ones in these photos, to please contact BTP.^

Following reports of suspicious activity in Shepley Road, Rednal, shortly after the incident at Barnt Green, officers attended the area and recovered a vehicle which they believe may also be linked with the attack on the ticket machine.

DS Erwin added: ^Once again, if you saw anything untoward in the Shepley Road area, in the early hours of Wednesday 4 January, then I would like to hear from you.

^Alternatively, if you know who was responsible for the damage caused at Barnt Green station, then it^s important that you contact the police in confidence and tell us what you know.^

(My highlighting. Chris.)

[bobm]

It is incidents like this which have a day to day affect on passengers in FGW^▸ (First Great Western) land (certainly in  the Thames Valley).  All their external TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) have had the ability to take cash removed and are card only.  SWT^▸ (South West Trains) - whose stations are sometimes less than a mile from their FGW counterparts - have not taken the same steps.

[BerkshireBugsy]

It is incidents like this which have a day to day affect on passengers in FGW^▸ (First Great Western) land (certainly in  the Thames Valley).  All their external TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) have had the ability to take cash removed and are card only.  SWT^▸ (South West Trains) - whose stations are sometimes less than a mile from their FGW counterparts - have not taken the same steps.

Certainly on my daily journey the cash facility at the tvm at thatcham has been removed . So this leads me to a question regarding travel on early services when the ticket office is shut or non existen (as in the case of a lot of other stations on the Newbury to Reading route)

Given that some tvms don't accept cash and don't support offline verification of some sorts of credit/ debit cards if a passenger can't buy a ticket at the point of departure are they allowed to board the train?

[paul7575]

You'd get the benefit of the conditions of carriage, and be able to buy on board or at your destination - but not on every successive day, because the next day you would already be aware that cash wouldn't be accepted.

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) transactions are all normally online, so there shouldn't be a problem using any regular debit or credit card.  But if your card wasn't acceptable I believe the onus would be on you to make other arrangements.

Paul

[BerkshireBugsy]

You'd get the benefit of the conditions of carriage, and be able to buy on board or at your destination - but not on every successive day, because the next day you would already be aware that cash wouldn't be accepted.

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) transactions are all normally online, so there shouldn't be a problem using any regular debit or credit card.  But if your card wasn't acceptable I believe the onus would be on you to make other arrangements.

Paul

I'm certainly not trying to evade the system here, I take objection when others try and evade fare payment which is sadly too easy to do. I just wanted to understand the rights a legitimate traveller may have in this situation so thanks for that.

I'm not sure all TVM actions are online because there are some chip entries on some cards which means it can only be used once "offline" before full (online) authorisation is required.

Therefore if you use one of these cards to buy a weekly ticket in a TVM one week it may work but the next week it may fail with a "this card can only be used once per day" error. If however you go into a station to buy a ticket at the counter (or use the card in a shop) in between it will work again - subject to available credit of course. Would it be expected that a customer (in this case of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) would understand such subtleties of card use?

I seem to remember this was discussed in another thread on here recently but can't remember the title!

[JayMac]

You'd get the benefit of the conditions of carriage, and be able to buy on board or at your destination - but not on every successive day, because the next day you would already be aware that cash wouldn't be accepted.

Are you sure about that? There's nothing in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage)) that says that being aware that a method of payment is not being accepted means you have ensure you you have the right method of payment on subsequent days. I often have a wallet full of cash and no funds in the bank. After the first day of 'card only' am I not then allowed to travel on subsequent days? That's hardly fair or passenger friendly.

The only stipulation in the NRCoC in cases of lack of ticketing facilities is that you must purchase your ticket at the earliest opportunity. If the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) is not providing facilities for you to do so at the first opportunity, then that is their problem, not the passengers. Under the terms of the NRCoC the passenger has the right to buy onboard, at an interchange (without incurring a delay to their journey), or destination. Whichever opportunity comes first.

[paul7575]

You'd get the benefit of the conditions of carriage, and be able to buy on board or at your destination - but not on every successive day, because the next day you would already be aware that cash wouldn't be accepted.

Are you sure about that? There's nothing in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage)) that says that being aware that a method of payment is not being accepted means you have ensure you you have the right method of payment on subsequent days.

I'm only morally sure about that.  Taking cash every day once you find out the machine doesn't take cash is the sort of thing someone would only do day after day if they were just trying to be awkward and I don't think the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) CofC are there to allow someone to be that stupid...

I've seen many tales from rail staff about people offering the wrong type of debit card day after day, it being a blatant ruse to avoid payment.  Should that be considered OK if done perpetually once it has been explained that cash or a satisfactory card is needed?  It is basically the opposite side of the same coin...

Paul

[JayMac]

It is basically the opposite side of the same coin...

A coin which, along with a few others and maybe the odd banknote, should always be accepted at the next opportunity when 'card only' was the first (Hobson's) choice. 

[Surrey 455]

It is incidents like this which have a day to day affect on passengers in FGW^▸ (First Great Western) land (certainly in  the Thames Valley).  All their external TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) have had the ability to take cash removed and are card only.  SWT^▸ (South West Trains) - whose stations are sometimes less than a mile from their FGW counterparts - have not taken the same steps.

It's also worth remembering that not everyone has access to a debit or credit card, particularly the young and the old who may not have bank accounts. Young people cannot obtain a card until they are 18. Many older people prefer to use cash.

[BerkshireBugsy]

It is incidents like this which have a day to day affect on passengers in FGW^▸ (First Great Western) land (certainly in  the Thames Valley).  All their external TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) have had the ability to take cash removed and are card only.  SWT^▸ (South West Trains) - whose stations are sometimes less than a mile from their FGW counterparts - have not taken the same steps.

It's also worth remembering that not everyone has access to a debit or credit card, particularly the young and the old who may not have bank accounts. Young people cannot obtain a card until they are 18. Many older people prefer to use cash.

I think you can get a debit card if you are younger than 18 .- see below

http://www.natwest.com/personal/current-accounts/g1/young-people.ashx

[ellendune]

My offspring certainly had debit cards before they were 18.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Indeed, 'young persons' under the age of 18 can legitimately have a bank account with a debit card.

Whether that is appropriate for them, in the judgement of their parent / guardian, is quite another matter. 

[BerkshireBugsy]

Indeed, 'young persons' under the age of 18 can legitimately have a bank account with a debit card.

Whether that is appropriate for them, in the judgement of their parent / guardian, is quite another matter. 

Chris - agreed. However I think this brings us back almost to the beginning because as far as I know a debit card which is held by someone under 18 must be authorised for every transaction because someone under 18 is not , by law, allowed a credit facility (such as a debit card which allows them to go overdrawn).

Dave

[ellendune]

Indeed, 'young persons' under the age of 18 can legitimately have a bank account with a debit card.

Whether that is appropriate for them, in the judgement of their parent / guardian, is quite another matter. 

My judgement was that that a Debit card was appropriate. It is not a credit card and does not allow the account to go into overdraft.  What can be wrong with that.

[BerkshireBugsy]

Indeed, 'young persons' under the age of 18 can legitimately have a bank account with a debit card.

Whether that is appropriate for them, in the judgement of their parent / guardian, is quite another matter. 

My judgement was that that a Debit card was appropriate. It is not a credit card and does not allow the account to go into overdraft.  What can be wrong with that.

At the risk of trying to second guess the meaning of the "appropriate" comment it may be more to do with the ability of people, in this case youngsters, to manage their fiances when it is so easy to draw on their savings but just putting a card in a machine .