Future sleeper service safe in new franchise - minister

[whole diary]

[eightf48544]

Re steam the workings at Padd  not all incoming locos uncoupled some went back to OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) still attached to the stock. When they did uncouple if you were lucky you could get a footpalte ride down the paltform!

At Waterloo where there also no runrounds nearly all stock went back to Clapham Junction and the loco LE to Nine elms, there being no equivalent to Ranleigh Bridge.

Stock would be bought in from Clapham and the loco run tender first from Nine Elms. The stock loco often gave a bit of shove for a light footfooted Bullied.

[andrewr]

Hi folks,

Sorry for being so quiet for a while - been rather busy with one thing or another but I thought I'd weigh in on the sleeper debate as there's been some very interesting points made by posters here.

On the profitability front, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) claimed a while back that the service is now profitable in financial as well as social terms and that it can hold its head commercially.

As for the future, well, I never have much faith in the ability of our civil servants to make sensible decisions on the railways so I fear the 'Night Riviera's future may be up for debate before long, despite such a strong showing of support a few years ago.

On the stock front, while new coaches may be a great idea, the Mk 3s are still low mileage compared with their daytime equivalents so there's no reason why a full refurb or even a major internal redesign couldn't deliver the same sort of benefits as new tack at vastly lower cost. After all, if the structure and bogies are sound, why replace with new for the sake of it?

What I do think would make sense is binning the 57s in favour of a Class 67+DVT^‡(resolve) push-pull formation, which should improve reliability without needing a separate loco at paddington to release the train engine. Would reconfigured HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power cars make sense? Given the speeds needed for the NR^» (Network Rail - home page), perhaps not, but it's something worth considering.

Finally, for what it's worth, I think a separate sleeper operation covering all night trains may have something going for it if it can pull off a Chiltern Railways style performance. If it doesn't have the budget to deliver improvements and marketing spend though I suspect it'll die fairly quickly. The best solution as I see it - which will never happen - would be for InterCity to be recreated and the sleepers run within that... The bookies would offer long odds on that happening though wouldn't they?

Anyway, will sign off now - if anyone has any thoughts or gen, please let me know as I'm ready to fight for the sleeper again if it comes under threat!

All the best,

Andrew Roden
Www.andrewroden.com

[The SprinterMeister]

On the stock front, while new coaches may be a great idea, the Mk 3s are still low mileage compared with their daytime equivalents so there's no reason why a full refurb or even a major internal redesign couldn't deliver the same sort of benefits as new tack at vastly lower cost. After all, if the structure and bogies are sound, why replace with new for the sake of it?

What I do think would make sense is binning the 57s in favour of a Class 67+DVT^‡(resolve) push-pull formation, which should improve reliability without needing a separate loco at paddington to release the train engine. Would reconfigured HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power cars make sense? Given the speeds needed for the NR^» (Network Rail - home page), perhaps not, but it's something worth considering.

All the best,

Andrew Roden
Www.andrewroden.com

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) drivers do not of course sign class 67's / DVT's.

Why hire in DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about)-S locomotives to operate the up and down Midnight when all you need to do is convert the sleeping coaches to HST trailer electrical spec (Bin M/A set and buffers, fit 36 way MU^▸ (Multiple Unit) cable and three phase ETS^▸ (Electric Train Supply) connections) refurbish a TGS, a TS and a Buffet to run with them and attach a Power Car to each end of the formation?

If the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) does go ahead there will be spare HST power cars and vehicles to do all of that and not incur any more crew training costs into the bargain.

[IndustryInsider]

Good idea that!

[bobm]

Why hire in DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about)-S locomotives to operate the up and down Midnight when all you need to do is convert the sleeping coaches to HST^▸ (High Speed Train) trailer electrical spec (Bin M/A set and buffers, fit 36 way MU^▸ (Multiple Unit) cable and three phase ETS^▸ (Electric Train Supply) connections) refurbish a TGS, a TS and a Buffet to run with them and attach a Power Car to each end of the formation?

How much spare sleeper stock is there?  Converting the electrical arrangements would take time and it wouldn't go down too well if the sleeper had to be curtailed for a few weeks while the work was done.  Or perhaps they could run the sleeper down on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays and up on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays while working on one set. 

[IndustryInsider]

Perhaps a couple of vehicles could be borrowed from the Caledonian Sleeper reserves for a few weeks if needed?

[grandsire]

The February "Modern Railways" is suggesting that the Scottish sleepers will transfer from Euston to Waterloo International when Mk 3 coaches are introduced to the trains ( and so will be too long for Euston platforms). Are they currently diesel hauled, otherwise there will be a third rail problem to overcome.  Article also suggest that Night Riviera could transfer too and perhaps all could be a mini franchise!

[paul7575]

I think they are electrically hauled to Glasgow or Edinburgh, then various splits and loco changes happen for the different onward destinations.  A slightly more complicated operation than the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) version all round...

Paul

[Rhydgaled]

If mrk2s of the Scotish sleeper are replaced by mrk3s, wouldn't it be more sensible to reduce to one set of day coaches and attach more for the other portions when the train splits (I think they already do this for the day coaches for one of the Highland portions) than re-route to Waterloo (I think the current locos, class 90s, don't have 3rd rail shoes)? If the train would be too long for Euston, surely it would also be too long at some intermediate stops?

Alternativly, have three sleeper trains from Euston to Scotland instead of the current two, perhaps sending the shortest (one portion of the current Highland) via Birmingham and having some coaches from Penzance/Plymouth and Bristol attached to it there?

[The SprinterMeister]

How much spare sleeper stock is there?  Converting the electrical arrangements would take time and it wouldn't go down too well if the sleeper had to be curtailed for a few weeks while the work was done.  Or perhaps they could run the sleeper down on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays and up on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays while working on one set. 

There are enough vehicles to cope while the sleeping car stock is converted, particularly if the sleeping cars are converted over the winter period.

The existing day coaches and 57/6's are then returned off lease. Refurbishing HST^▸ (High Speed Train) stock would be more cost effective than altering the current BFO^▸ (Brake First Open (carriage)) TSO^▸ (The Stationary Office (now OPSI)) Buffet to HST spec.

At the moment this would be something for the future as all HST resources are in use currently.

[The SprinterMeister]

Article also suggest that Night Riviera could transfer too and perhaps all could be a mini franchise!

Well I hope not as I quite like driving class 57/6. And one doesn't like to willingly give work away...
 

[JayMac]

Could a refurb of the existing Mark 3 SLEPs be done to include showers? Maybe not in each berth, but, say, two or four per carriage in place of one or two berths.  Would their be room for the larger water tanks needed and the additional plumbing?

[inspector_blakey]

I'm sure it's possible one way or another, if it's deemed to be cost-effective is another matter of course. Via Rail Canada refurbished their Budd Company 1950s-vintage stainless steel sleeping cars with showers at some point; they're fairly basic but very effective. The mark 3 sleepers have (or certainly had in their original state) two toilets per car, which seems like overkill given the relatively low density of occupants; I don't suppose it would be impossible to convert one of these.

Showers are probably more of a necessity in Canada given that a journey from Vancouver to Toronto will involve spending three nights on-board though...

[grahame]

Couldn't resist a couple of pictures of the current sleeper at Paddington.   Last night.

[JayMac]

From the Western Morning News:

MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament)' call to protect South West sleeper train service

Ministers have been told to protect the vital sleeper rail service between London and the far South West from the axe amid fears the "ageing" carriages are to go.

George Eustice, MP for Camborne and Redruth, says the region's economy would be hit if the overnight inter-city was cut under a new rail contract.

The alarm was raised after the Government published a consultation document ahead of the next Great Western rail franchise starting next year.

In it, the Department for Transport posed questions about what services passengers wanted, and asked for opinions on the future of the "overnight service ... given that the sleeper cars and locomotives are ageing".

Mr Eustice is concerned it is a leading question ^ indicating it should go ^ and has written to the department to say it "must be retained at all costs".

He writes: "It is difficult to underestimate the importance of the sleeper service for those of us in Cornwall."

MPs and passenger groups are extra protective of the "red-eye" as only a high-profile campaign saved it from the axe the last time the franchise was tendered in 2006.

The Paddington to Penzance "night riviera" service, one of only two sleepers in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), stops at most mainline stations in the region. Leaving the capital at 11.45pm, the train, which includes one and two-bed compartments, arrives in Plymouth at 4.02am and Penzance at 7.53am. In the other direction, it gets into Paddington before 5.30am.

Mr Eustice, a Conservative MP, goes on: "The sleeper remains the only service that enables someone to work in London until 11pm and then get on the train and be in Cornwall in time for an 8am meeting the following day.

"It is also the only service that will get someone into London from Cornwall in time for an early morning meeting; it is difficult to see this situation changing in the next 20 years and therefore the service must be maintained."

Last month, the Western Morning News reported that the document, out to consultation until March 31, asked whether under-used branch-line stations should be skipped to make journeys quicker.

A DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) spokesman said no decisions had been made and the purpose of the consultation was to gather views.

Mr Eustice goes on that the sleeper question "specifically refers to the age of the sleeper service carriages and locomotives".

"Although it is true that the sleeper carriages are now a few years old, they are well maintained, perfectly comfortable and, I believe, have many years of perfectly acceptable functionality left in them.

"The locomotives themselves need either to be maintained at current levels, or, if the budget allows, replaced."

He added: "Last time the sleeper service was under threat, there was some suggestion that the issue was not only its financial viability, but that Network Rail wanted to do engineering work overnight and found the sleeper train rather inconvenient.

"It should not, however, be beyond the wit of man to deal with that issue and park the train somewhere while engineering works take place."

After train operator First exercised a break clause in the contract, the franchise will be put out to tender this year with the new operator taking charge of services throughout the region from next April. First has said it intends to bid.

Firms will pay the Government to run the 15-year franchise and pocket fares in return.

Last week, MPs, business leaders and passenger groups launched a campaign to lobby for more rail investment in the Westcountry.

Axeing the sleeper would be deeply unpopular. Andrew George, Liberal Democrat MP for St Ives, has written to ministers previously to say it must be protected.