Crossrail train extensions?

[whole diary]

[Btline]

Currently Crossrail is being built for 10 car services (new stations ready for 12).

If it takes over WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) slows to Milton Keynes, surely it will need to be 12 car otherwise commuters will have overall carriages axed. Since Crossrail is going to be formed of special stock, how will the trains be lengthed if the extension takes place?

Also - I assume they are ordering enough carraiges for Maidenhead. What happens if when the extension to Reading is announced? They'll need more stock. Ditto for Abbey Wood to Gravesend.

They need to sort out the routes now before they put the stock out to tender!

[anthony215]

This is something that needs to be looked that I think a crossrail service to/from Reading every 15 minutes during the peaks would certainly help with overcrowding between Reading & London Paddington on the high speed services.

 I do think that a crossrail service every 20 minutes should be enough off peak when you consider there is a high speed service between Reading & London every 5-10 minutes off peak with a journey time like to be just over 20 minutes compared to 29 minutes now.

I think extending to Reading will certainly help save costs as you wont have to build all those sidings at Maidenhead plus I doubt a extension to Reading will require more than 1 or 2 extra units.

[paul7575]

Presumably you've both noticed that the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise consultation does not mention Crossrail to Reading?

However, it is certain that any western extensions would require many additional units. 

10 car trains on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) would only be an issue if they replaced LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) services one for one surely?  The London and SE RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) doesn't actually propose replaceing the entire WCML slow line service with Crossrail, it will more likely be a combined Crossrail and Euston service.

Paul

[Electric train]

I doubt that extending service from Maidenhead to Reading would require additional sets, Crossrail to Maidenhead is 4 TpH the current Reading locals is 4 TpH, 2 per hour terminate at Reading with 2 per hour going to Oxford / Banbury; Crossrail is a Metro service i.e. a stopping service I can not see many Reading HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) commuters wanting to use Crossrail they will continue to go to Padd and change.

What will be interesting to see from the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise is how Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough will be catered for with semi fasts to London and through services to Oxford / Banbury and even Newbury.

As for extending the Abbey Wood terminating services, while this is written down as a wish, Crossrail is not being built with that extension in mind, the cost of AC / DC^▸ (Direct Current) immunisation / resignalling is prohibitive, the likely future extension will have to wait for the DC to AC conversion of the route.

Crossrail on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) would require funding, it is just a proposal of something that could done, also the 10 Crossrail units may well have greater capacity than the current stock.

[ChrisB]

I doubt that extending service from Maidenhead to Reading would require additional sets, Crossrail to Maidenhead is 4 TpH the current Reading locals is 4 TpH, 2 per hour terminate at Reading with 2 per hour going to Oxford / Banbury; Crossrail is a Metro service i.e. a stopping service I can not see many Reading HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) commuters wanting to use Crossrail they will continue to go to Padd and change.

If this happens, pax separation would be via two fares - an Any Permitted continuing to be set by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and a cheaper 'Crossrail only' fare. Get that cheaper level right & you'd get pax to transfer.

[Btline]

Presumably, Crossrail will take Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) and Reading would be put into a London Fare Zone R (a la Watford Junction).

These TfL^» (Transport for London - about) fares would then not be valid on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services (no doubt leading to problems when passengers flash their oyster cards at FGW HST^▸ (High Speed Train) guards).

Perhaps the new station could be designed so that there are different ticket gates for the Crossrail platforms, to ensure that people using Travelcards and oysters can only get to the slow lines platforms.

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

The consultation document does in fact refer to Crossrail:

Crossrail
Crossrail is a new west^east railway linking Maidenhead and Heathrow in the west via tunnels under central London to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east. It will add significant capacity to London^s rail network through the provision of up to 24 high-capacity, 10-coach trains an hour in each direction in the central section between Paddington and Liverpool Street during peak periods.Crossrail services will commence from 2018. Under current plans Crossrail services will take over the suburban relief-line service between Paddington and Maidenhead and the Heathrow Connect services from Paddington to Heathrow Airport. The franchisee will be expected to facilitate the transfer of services and specific stations to the Crossrail operator.Residual local Reading through services to Paddington will be operated by the franchise. In addition, although through services from Greenford to Paddington will cease, a shuttle service will operate between Greenford and West Ealing and will be included in the Great Western franchise as part of the changes associated with the Crossrail programme. Network Rail has agreed a Track Access Option giving the necessary access rights for Crossrail services to operate. They are developing a combined candidate IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)/Crossrail timetable which the Department will draw on for our assessment of future Great Western demand. The timetable is an operational model and will be made available to franchise bidders to assist with the preparation of their bids, but implementing it for IEP services will not be a mandatory requirement.

16. What is the best balance between fast outer commuter services and intermediate stops? How could the residual suburban services best be optimised once Crossrail services start?

[ChrisB]

Presumably, Crossrail will take Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) and Reading would be put into a London Fare Zone R (a la Watford Junction).

These TfL^» (Transport for London - about) fares would then not be valid on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services (no doubt leading to problems when passengers flash their oyster cards at FGW HST^▸ (High Speed Train) guards).

Perhaps the new station could be designed so that there are different ticket gates for the Crossrail platforms, to ensure that people using Travelcards and oysters can only get to the slow lines platforms.

Agree with your first two paragraphs (& its about time that pax take responsibility for reading the rules which would be posted at Crossrail platforms at Reading)

the same gates would be ITSO compatible.

RE^▸ (Religious Education) CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about)'s post, it couldn't very easily say anything else aty the moment, as the possibility (probability) of going to Reading with Crossrail havsn't been announced formally, and it wouldn't happen in this document.

[Btline]

Now the Greenford service is to be axed at West Ealing is there much point in the service clinging on? Surely most passengers will use the London Underground or go straight to the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) by bike, bus or car.

I think the service should be axed completely and the Turbo moved elsewhere (Melksham?).

[anthony215]

Too be honest if the Greenford service is cut bakc to just between Greenford & West Ealing then I doubt there would be many people using the service, to be honest the route is quiet now even with through trains to Paddington.

A single class 153 should be more than enough really for a shuttle service or for that matter a pacer.

Its a pity you couldn't have a through service from West Ealing to some parts of the Chiltern network or perhaps if there were paths available run the train to somewhere like Clapham Jct.

[Zoe]

Crossrail to Maidenhead is 4 TpH

That's only at peak times though, off peak the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) rejected the additional paths to Maidenhead so it will only be 2 tph.

Presumably, Crossrail will take Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) and Reading would be put into a London Fare Zone R (a la Watford Junction).

I very much doubt Reading will be in a London fare zone.  Watford Junction isn't in a London fare zone either, "W" is only used internally by TfL^» (Transport for London - about), the station is technically outside the zones.  London Midland set the fare from London to Watford.

[grahame]

Now the Greenford service is to be axed at West Ealing is there much point in the service clinging on? Surely most passengers will use the London Underground or go straight to the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) by bike, bus or car.

I'm not so sure it would make the dramatic difference that you're suggesting to traffic levels.   What proportion of Greenford branch stations passengers actually have Ealing Broadway, Acton Main Line or Paddington as their final destination?   For those, I agree, an unwelcome extra change.   But for many others - and new passengers too - you're swapping a change at Paddington (or a change at Ealing Broadway) for Central London for a change at West Ealing - potentially a far nicer changing experience, even if there's not to be a Yo Sushi at West Ealing.

I think the service should be axed completely and the Turbo moved elsewhere (Melksham?).

Please may I go on the record as dis-associating myself from that statement.  Whilst I would very much welcome a service comprised of 165, 166 or 168 class units that called at Melksham to an appropriate timetable, I would not advocate that it be done at the expense of axing all services to Greenford.   Mind you, the current Greenford <-> Paddington service is run by 2 units, and if the Greenford <-> West Ealing only needed one,  I would be happy to see the spare finding a useful home in Wiltshire. I believe we have a clearance issue at Trowbridge, though.

[Btline]

Actually, you make a good point that passengers can change for Crossrail to central London from West Ealing, so perhaps it would not make much difference as they'd have to do this at Paddington anyway. But passenger numbers should be monitored. Perhaps a 153 would be better.

I'd much rather the train was helping the whole of Wilts rather than carting round fresh air in Zone 2 or 3 London where there are a plethora of other services to get to town. And it would not be axing all trains at Greenford - they still have the Central line (a lot less crowded after Crossrail).

[paul7575]

The consultation document does in fact refer to Crossrail:

Yes it does refer to it - but what I said in the earlier post was that it does NOT refer to running Crossrail services through to Reading - which is what everyone has been predicting...

Paul

[ellendune]

The consultation document does in fact refer to Crossrail:

16. What is the best balance between fast outer commuter services and intermediate stops? How could the residual suburban services best be optimised once Crossrail services start?

It seems to me that the best answer to the second part of Question 16, is by extending Crossrail to Reading as the RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) recommends. Let Cross rail do the 'all stations' Readiing to London and some of the Oxford trains doing the limited stop services (e.g. Maidenhead and Slough).