Minister to consider tightening ticket rules in light of FGW's price rises

[whole diary]

[Mookiemoo]

Not as simple as that... When working from Exeter to Exmouth, I see it as someone might get away with not paying for their journey in the morning, but will get caught in the evening, so although a single is then bought, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) get a higher % and lose a lot less money than if the singles were 50% of the return price.

OK, so why were CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) less than CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) but saver singles about te same as saver returns.  Surely ticketless travel is more likely to be stopped on longer trips.  And ticketless travel is only estimated to be 5, 7 or 10% (and teh kind of fraud you describe only a small subset of that), not enought to justify the pricing of singes very close to that of retunrs. 

But CDS are like Saver Singles.  However usually they are only 10p less than the return.  One of the reasons for this is it reduces the amount of revenue protection you need to provide.  If the single is the same price as the return then the ticket only needs to be checked in one direction.  Lets face it if the price of the return ticket is almost the same as the single and you know you will be checked in one direction but not the other are you going to take a chance for the sake of 10p and not buy the return. 

But it then over prices people who may want to do what I have done on occasions in the 10s

WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains)-RDG^‡(resolve)-BHM-WOS

Simply because my return journey was quicker via brum because of the off peak timings down on the cotswolds.  If you just miss, say the 4pmish departure from RDG and dont want to sit o two interminable turbos stopping every where with no power sockets, you get the next vomiter to brum. 

By on the fly RDG-WOS via brum is prices the same as a return which I will never use

[JayMac]

 

By on the fly RDG^‡(resolve)-WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) via brum is prices the same as a return which I will never use

By on the fly RDG-BAN and BAN-WOS instead then, that'll save you a few bob 

[Mookiemoo]

 

By on the fly RDG^‡(resolve)-WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) via brum is prices the same as a return which I will never use

By on the fly RDG-BAN and BAN-WOS instead then, that'll save you a few bob 

Do all vomiters stop at banbury?

[JayMac]

 

By on the fly RDG^‡(resolve)-WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) via brum is prices the same as a return which I will never use

By on the fly RDG-BAN and BAN-WOS instead then, that'll save you a few bob 

Do all vomiters stop at banbury?

Yup. Off Peak Day singles total ^27.30 (^18.05 RC). First Class Anytime Day Singles ^68.40 (^47.15 RC excl. Y-P) Both fares RDG-BAN and BAN-WOS set by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and no evening restrictions.

[grahame]

The system remains overcomplex ... and complexity leads to loopholes and oddities, which lead to some unfairnesses and some people feeling really cheated. Many of us have been on holiday and found that we're seated next to the loudmouth who shouts about how he got the peak holiday flight for just a fiver.

The logic of "pay per mile" is hard to refute, and it's what fares are based on - although they have got so distorted over the years that in reallity the basis has all but disappeared in some comparisons.  So I welcome single tickets being about half the price of returns - it always seemed illogical that I needed to know before I cwbought my outward ticket whether I would be returning before or after 6:30 p.m. on a "buy as you travel" ticket.  And I welcome this as a step in the right direction even if (as well all strongly suspect) the overall package of new fares increases FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s income.

Taking this towards a logical conclusion, a simplified swipe on / swipe off system at train doors, charging per mile for all journeys, with peak trains at a higher ppm rate, and bulk travel reductions  to replace season tickets would make things easier.   Come to think of it, why not extend the pensioner's bus pass to trains, and lower the age at which such a pass may be used from 60 to birth?  That would certainly encourage people to leave there cars at home where there was a convenient public transport service (greener, cutting need for new roads, etc) and would cut the fraud we here so much about here (no need to avoid payment / being counted)

[vacman]

After getting my head around the new fares at last I think that it is actually better, like someone else pointed out, if you have to make a spur of the moment trip from Plymouth to London you need only buy a half price single and then you have the chance to book an Advance for coming back, and if you can't get an Advance you only buy another super/off-peak single and don't pay any more than you would have done buying a return.

As for someone saying that half price singles should apply to Peak fares-well they do, an SOS is half the price of an SOR on all London flows!

[willc]

What I actually said was "If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) had gone over to half-price single tickets across the board on their network, at all times of the day" - they haven't, there are still lots of fares where the single is little less than the return.

What this latest change has done is introduce yet another category of ticket, with yet more rules - at a time when the operators had allegedly agreed with DafT to simplify things.

A peak single from Moreton-in-Marsh to London is ^28.50, half the ^57 anytime return fare - so far, so logical.

But off-peak, a single is ^26.90, while an off-peak day return is ^27, or a Saver return (because that's what people persist in asking Christine in the ticket office to sell them) is ^32 (never mind the Cotswold Line Saver exemptions for the halts train and 6.43 from Hereford adding to the fun). Where's the logic and simplicity in that situation? Though at least we don't have super off-peak here to muddy the waters even further.

By fiddling around with combining singles for a peak run in and an off-peak back, I would save myself a grand total of ^1.60 on just asking for a return to make the return journey I am actually making.

Yes, were I to use the Network Railcard, I could save myself a bit more on the off-peak leg, but that's assuming I am someone who knows about its existence and has obtained one - and on lots of journeys, the ^13 minimum fare would affect any discount. The old BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) idea that this railcard could attract more custom and actually drive up revenue that way just seems to have gone out of the window now.

It's all very well those of you who have all this kind of stuff off pat to go on about buying assorted combinations of tickets - most of the people using trains don't know or care about this kind of stuff, they just want a ticket covering the journey they are making. If they are making a one-way trip, they logically ask for a single - I'm sure many don't realise that it's only 10p less than the return, at least not until the time they ask for a return and the penny drops - and then what do they think of the railways?

[super tm]

Yes but First werent the ones who started super off peak.  FGW^▸ (First Great Western) did as requested and simplified the system last year.  However other operators did not.  What would you do in their situation.  They have a contract with the government to raise as much money as possible and this change is part of that.

It really annoys me when politicians spout statements about looking into it  and maybe change the rules.  What did you do when SWT^▸ (South West Trains) did the same thing - nothing.  Simplification last year but allowed some operators to keep super off peak and did nothing.  I mean if we really want to go back GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways) started this when they introduced business saver and made their saver ticket more restricted in when it could be used and that was years ago.

The new ticket has had a number of benefits.  You can now get a walk up single for half the price of a return.  Anyone who has to travel one way in the peak and one way off peak is better off by 20 - 30 pounds.  If you miss your train with an advance purchase ticket or want to change the time (and are travelling off peak) will pay about half the amount you would have done a few weeks ago.

Also it has spread the peak demand pinch point when you switch from peak to off peak so some of the previously grossly overcrowded services.

Cheap day returns and cheap day singles are about the same price so as to encourage you to buy the return.  As most people are making return trips if everybody bought a single each time you would need to employ twice the ticket office staff etc. So returns are made roughly the same price as a single to save money for the railway and also the tax payer who subsidises the railway.

[JayMac]

By fiddling around with combining singles for a peak run in and an off-peak back, I would save myself a grand total of ^1.60 on just asking for a return to make the return journey I am actually making.

There you go then, the new fares structure has reduced your travel costs. That ^1.60 gets you a coffee!

And not to forget, for historical reasons, you are already paying less on The Cotswold Line than on similar length journeys elsewhere with FGW^▸ (First Great Western).

[John R]

I'm typically saving ^20 on a return from Swindon.

[IndustryInsider]

That ^1.60 gets you a coffee!

And it's good value coffee at Moreton, too. A nice small business with husband and wife running Moreton and Charlbury on weekday mornings. Just a shame about the frequent break-ins at Moreton earlier in the year - hopefully they've stopped now.

[willc]

Don't drink the stuff - and I think I would rather just have someone, somewhere, impose a clear, consistent fares structure on rail journeys across the board, instead of the confusing alphabet soup of ticket types and baffling options (eg advance fares that are more than a super off-peak single for the same train) that currently prevails.

I don't think anyone is disputing that people will save on some journeys, but I don't believe FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would have done this if it was going to cost them money, or be revenue-neutral - why would you bother adding another layer of complexity to the ticket system if it wasn't going to produce a healthy return?

The car park fees hike introduced at the same time certainly won't be revenue-neutral. I don't think the two changes are unconnected.

So returns are made roughly the same price as a single to save money for the railway and also the tax payer who subsidises the railway.

Following that logic, why don't they just do that all day? Think how much more money that would bring in.

[IndustryInsider]

...and I think I would rather just have someone, somewhere, impose a clear, consistent fares structure on rail journeys across the board

Perhaps that should be the final piece of the jigsaw to complete Lord Adonis' legacy?

[Tim]

It really annoys me when politicians spout statements about looking into it  and maybe change the rules. 

Why?  it is the job of the politicial to write the rules, review them and change them as neccessary.

Whether Adonis can or should change the rules this time is a different question.  But I would hope that if he cant this time, the rules can be changed in time for the next franchise renewal. 

[super tm]

It really annoys me when politicians spout statements about looking into it  and maybe change the rules. 

Why?  it is the job of the politicial to write the rules, review them and change them as neccessary.

Whether Adonis can or should change the rules this time is a different question.  But I would hope that if he cant this time, the rules can be changed in time for the next franchise renewal. 

What I should have added is that in six months they will forget about it only to say it again when the issue comes up.  But they dont actually DO anything.