"New improved inter-urban Porstmouth-Cardiff services" from 2018/2019

[whole diary]

[XPT]

I read a small article in RAIL magazine yesterday(reading it in WHSmith's!) that from 2018/2019 there will be new improved inter-urban Cardiff-Portsmouth services.  As well as new all-stops Cardiff-Westbury services.    Does this mean that these new improved Cardiff-Portsmouth services will be limited stop faster services?  Or is it referring to the new trains that will be used on these services?  If it is referring to faster limited stop services, I can see there possibly being a stopping pattern like Cardiff, Newport, Filton Abbey Wood, Bristol Temple Meads, Bath Spa, Westbury, then all the usual stops to Portsmouth.   I certainly can't see them not having Filton Abbey Wood and Westbury as station stops. 

Anyway in the meantime, it's a bit of a long wait till we find out yet!

[smithy]

unless there is change in gov then it is unlikely there will be any new trains running as electrification is cascading turbo's to west services and turbostar order has now been cancelled

[Jez]

I think a new faster service could prob call at just Newport, Bristol TM^‡(resolve), Bath Spa, Westbury, Warminster, Salsbury, Southampton Central and then all station to Portsmouth Harbour.

[devon_metro]

Would it really miss out Trowbridge? Always seems busy to me, whereas Westbury simply provides the connections, but they won't be much use if the trains only run to larger stations which already have direct services from x,y,z.

[Btline]

I agree with Smithy: I can't see the point in speculating over this, there is too much that can change in a decade!

We've got Crossrail, Thameslink, GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) electrification, new HST2s and HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)). Any of these could be axed, delayed or cut back.

[JayMac]

I think a new faster service could prob call at just Newport, Bristol TM^‡(resolve), Bath Spa, Westbury, Warminster, Salsbury, Southampton Central and then all station to Portsmouth Harbour.

Tis only an hourly service and ain't likely to become more frequent following stock cascades. I don't think the residents of Bradford-on Avon or Trowbridge (which is only Wiltshire's county town and has 10000 more residents than Warminster) will be happy to see a reduction in service. Particularly as missing these two stops and Filton Abbey Wood will save what? 10-15 mins on the CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-PMH timing. Not worth it. Will 3 hours 5ish minutes be any more attractive that 3 hours 20ish minutes?

[Jez]

Sorry didnt realise Trowbridge was a busy station. I knew Westbury was an important one as people connect into many other services there.  There are many other trains which call at Filton tho so people could connect at Bristol Temple Meads. This would provide a non stop service from Cardiff/Newport to Bristol TM^‡(resolve).

Could there be scope for a limited stop between Southampton to Portsmouth and Southsea? What other TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) run services along this line?

[Timmer]

Sorry didnt realise Trowbridge was a busy station. I knew Westbury was an important one as people connect into many other services there.  There are many other trains which call at Filton tho so people could connect at Bristol Temple Meads. This would provide a non stop service from Cardiff/Newport to Bristol TM^‡(resolve).

Could there be scope for a limited stop between Southampton to Portsmouth and Southsea? What other TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) run services along this line?

I think a limited stop Cardiff-Portsmouth service returning to what it was a few years ago would be a good idea provided good stopping services are provided in between the fast services. I find it surprising there isn't demand for 1st class particularly between Bath/Bristol-Cardiff.

In answer to your question, the other TOCs operating on the line between Southampton and Portsmouth are SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and Southern (not all the way to Portsmouth)

[tramway]

Sorry didnt realise Trowbridge was a busy station. I knew Westbury was an important one as people connect into many other services there.  There are many other trains which call at Filton tho so people could connect at Bristol Temple Meads. This would provide a non stop service from Cardiff/Newport to Bristol TM^‡(resolve).

Could there be scope for a limited stop between Southampton to Portsmouth and Southsea? What other TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) run services along this line?

I will be interesting to see what happens as I have raised on a few occasions the disparity between morning and evening peak service from/to Trowbridge especially as they differ by approx 15 min. It takes an hour to get to Filton but only 45 min to return which is just ludicrous. A service change was also proposed in the 2004 publication by the then RPC of 'The Main Line They Shouldn't Ignore', no longer available online AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know), although would be happy to be corrected.

A couple of small quotes some members may not be aware of:

Passenger flow data identifies a high percentage of journeys in peak periods travelling between major conurbations. Seven stations generate just under three-quarters of the footfall (Portsmouth, Southampton, Salisbury, Trowbridge, Bath Spa, Bristol Temple Meads, Cardiff. (I understand that Trowbridge is actually the 5th largest contributor on the route)

Regional express service proposed stopping pattern.

Cardiff
Newport
Filton
Bristol
Bath
Trowbridge
Westbury
Warminster
Salisbury
Romsey (peak)
Southampton
Fareham
Fratton
Portsmouth stations

I am convinced that a decent peak express service from West Wilts to Central/North Bristol properly promoted would remove quite a number of current car commuters to the Greater Bristol area, there is no competition on this route at the moment as the current peak service taking an hour can easily be beaten in a car.

From discussion with Lee in the past I am aware of pathing difficulties especially BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)/Filton although there are plans to re 4 track the section up to Filton, but no specific funding identified by NR^» (Network Rail - home page).

And I have no sympathy with the argument to retain BoA^» (Bradford-on-Avon - next trains) as many residents who would prefer to use an express service could quite easily get to Trowbridge, and it would still leave BoA with a 2 tph service. 

[bemmy]

Interesting plan although 9 years is a long time to wait! It raises the question, how big do cities have to be before trains between them become Inter-City? This 140 mile route links 4 of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)'s 30 largest cities, yet takes 3 1/2 hours, and as Timmer says it's hard to believe there's no First Class market nowadays.

[tramway]

Interesting plan although 9 years is a long time to wait! It raises the question, how big do cities have to be before trains between them become Inter-City? This 140 mile route links 4 of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)'s 30 largest cities, yet takes 3 1/2 hours, and as Timmer says it's hard to believe there's no First Class market nowadays.

They are inter-city just not 'Inter-City' which presumably was a branding exercise by BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)).

A lot of infrastructure work would be needed to improve on the current line speed to get better than 3 1/2 hours, cost benefit then happens and Wiltshire council won't be happy if they have to contribute if any of the current anti rail people are still about.

Looks like the timetable is dependant on the 4 tracking proposal out of Bristol, which is possibly also dependant on the current fools in charge of relevant councils not blocking a GBPTA.

[bemmy]

Yeah I meant Inter City as in the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) name for express services with First Class and (usually) a buffet.

I appreciate not a lot can be done with linespeeds, but the journey time could be improved with fewer stops (dependent on an extra hourly service to serve the stops missed out), better pathing (which would probably need some infrastructure improvements) and better acceleration (which would probably mean electrification -- I'm sure any equivalent route in France or Germany would be electrified). I'm asking too much aren't I! 

Regarding 4-tracking Filton Bank, I'm not sure that a Greater Bristol Passenger Transport Authority would make much difference -- they won't have that sort of money themselves, and I think Network Rail's proposal is more about improving capacity and reliability of long distance freight and passenger services (such as Cardiff-Portsmouth) rather than the benefits to local suburban travel, which would be the limit of a GBPTA's remit. How likely a GBPTA is I don't know, but I imagine certain councils may baulk at anything with "Greater Bristol" in it........ 

[tramway]

As I understand it the 2 tracks to Filton are at capacity now and is the limiting factor for any enhancements around Bristol, which is why it's in NR^» (Network Rail - home page) plans. I can therefore understand why it might take 10 years to get the Portsmouth/Cardiff improvements suggested.

The stock for the route/diagram should really be a diesel version of the 442.

[anthony215]

I have also heard that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are looking at using some of teh thames turbos to prvide a hourly stopping service between westbury & Swindon with a few trains extended through to cheltenham spa