Carmarthen to Aberystwyth railway

[whole diary]

[Oxonhutch]

Curve to link lines at Minfforrd, regauging to just north of Tan y Grisiau, new curve to line through the existing tunnel to Roman Bridge,  I suspect  .  Joining up successful railways. Who could possibly object??

Might be more popular to bring the rails south of Minfforrd and north of Blaenau closer together (say ca. 2') and power it with steam

[Sixty3Closure]

I cycled from Carmarthen (well actually Pembroke) to Aberystwyth many years ago and a rail line would have been so much easier. Although not far in total distance trying to go north to south was really difficult. I ended up cycling it in not much more time than it would have taken to train it which can't be a good sign for public transport.

[grahame]

New technology funded and in use on the road that runs along this way - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-60525088

Developers of a trial using nappies to make roads say it could mean the surfaces last twice as long.

The project is being piloted in Wales, and it could mean fewer nappies are thrown into landfill.

Fibre from nappies is added to bitumen glueing together asphalt road surfaces.

The Welsh government is backing the project with £180,000 funding, and a stretch of the A487 between Aberystwyth and Cardigan  in Ceredigion has already been replaced with the nappy formula.

[grahame]

From The BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) - video to watch

Trains: My 49-mile and seven-and-a-half hour journey

BBC Journalist Jared Evitts took the most direct route by train between two towns 49-miles apart. It took him seven-and-a-half hours.

Carmarthen and Aberystwyth are the two biggest towns in west Wales. To drive directly from one to the other should take about an hour and 15 minutes.

However, since the railway line between them closed in 1965, you cannot go directly between them by train.

[Red Squirrel]

65% passenger growth for new electric bus route

New electric TrawsCymru buses running between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth have seen a 65% increase in passengers this year.



09 Apr 2024
New electric TrawsCymru buses running between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth have seen a 65% increase in passengers this year.

Launched at the end of March 2023, the new state-of-the-art buses carried more than 100,000 passengers in their first six months in service and more recently have shown an overall increase of passengers by 65% compared to 2022/23.

Each vehicle saves 3kg of CO2 per round trip, equating to nearly 13,000 cups of tea.

Promotional offers have helped encourage more people to use the sustainable transport service including a £10 travel all-day for two adults and two children summer group ticket, an integrated rail and bus ticket for cheaper travel from Cardiff to Aberystwyth and 50% off journeys during September’s 'Catch the Bus' month.

The Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport, Ken Skates said: “This is great news for bus users and the environment. The introduction of these greener, modern, more comfortable buses has clearly encouraged more people to use the Traws Cymru T1 service and I'm grateful to everyone involved in making this happen.”

Mark Jacobs, Contracts and Performance Manager for TrawsCymru said: “Launching the all-electric TrawsCymru T1 service last year was a significant moment in the story of TfW and our development into a truly multi-modal organisation.

“Feedback on the new service has been overwhelmingly positive and the increase in passenger numbers demonstrates how an improved public transport offering can positively influence people’s travel behaviours.

“The success of the new T1 fleet is the result of an effective partnership with the teams at Carmarthenshire County Council and First Cymru, who have provided invaluable support to making this vital Carmarthen to Aberystwyth bus service the high-end public transport offering that it is today.” 

Source: Transport for Wales

Apologies for the fact that this item is a few months old - Ed

[ChrisB]

From BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Wales

Trains: £2bn to re-open Carmarthen to Bangor lines

Re-opening railway lines that were shut in the 1960s and have left large towns without a direct rail link would cost £2bn, Transport for Wales has said.

TfW looked at the line between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth, Ceredigion and Afon Wen and Bangor in Gwynedd.

Chief executive James Price said it would be "very costly" to develop and "difficult" to implement.

Campaigners have said it was unclear how the rail operator got that figure as all studies had not yet been done.

Under the Welsh Labour government's co-operation deal with Plaid Cymru, TfW was asked to examine how transport links between the north and south could be developed

That included a potential travel corridor along the coast from Carmarthen to Bangor, with TfW looking at re-connecting the disused rail routes between Bangor and Afon Wen - about 28 miles.

Since the closure of the Aberystwyth to Carmarthen line, taking the train between the two towns - which are just 49 miles apart - takes seven hours.

Owned by the Welsh government, TfW has been responsible for train services across much of Wales since 2018.



In a letter to a Senedd committee, Mr Price said TfW looked at a "wide-ranging assessment to examine how accessibility and connectivity can be improved on the west coast of Wales".

He said the options offered shorter journey times but were "very costly to develop and implement".

A north to south rail scheme would "likely to cost circa £2bn and would take over 10 years to deliver".

He added: "Therefore, these are all difficult to realise, even as a light rail scheme. The case for Bangor - Caernarfon/Afon Wen was stronger due to shorter route length and higher demand."

Transport expert Prof Stuart Cole said the plans did not offer value for money.

He said: "As someone who lives in Llanelli, nothing would please me more than to go by train via Carmarthen to Aberystwyth. But it doesn't have a sufficiently high rate of return in financial terms.

"The number of people living in the area of the planned route is too small for an investment of this size."

People in Carmarthen supported the idea, but questioned whether it was viable.

Margaret Jones said: "I know it makes sense for the businesses each end but it's a lot of money to pay for that especially as there are so many people living on the streets... that money could be better spent."

Branwen Evans said it would be "great" if it went ahead, but doubts it will "as it will cost too much".

Former Plaid Cymru leader Adam Price believes it could be paid for from spending on the HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) rail project in England.

"We can do that of course if HS2 is re-registered as being an England-only project, which it is," the Carmarthen East and Dinefwr Member of the Senedd said.

"Even HS2 as it now exists we would get sufficient money invested in Wales so we could achieve this national important project."

Mark Davies from campaign group Traws Link Cymru said he was "surprised" at the comments made by TfW.

He said: "It should be noted that scoping and feasibility studies are yet to be completed for the northern section of the line and therefore it is not clear how TfW have arrived at the £2bn total cost."

Edit note: Two minor adjustments to quote marks, to improve clarity. CfN.

[Sixty3Closure]

I'm sure they'll emerge at some point but it would be interesting to see the detail. How were the potential numbers calculated as I wonder how much was "build it and they will come" was factored in. When I was at college at Aberystwyth there were a large number of students from south and west Wales which might provide a regular revenue stream and make the Colleges at Aber, Bangor and Carmarthen more attractive. Develop tourism. Working in an off licence we stocked a lot of Banks's for day trippers/weekenders from the midlands from where there was a reasonable rail link but not so much Brains for Cardiff visitors who presumably didn't fancy the journey.

I think there's also the whole idea of improving north-south links in Wales. The road links aren't great and are there bigger benefits than purely revenue? Would the North feel less disconnected from the Capital, less traffic? The A470 has very little dual carriage way which is another reason not to travel north-south.

[Chris from Nailsea]

We are spreading this topic rather wider here, but when my daughter travelled between Nailsea and her university in Bangor, it was relatively easier by rail rather than road. 

[grahame]

I think there's also the whole idea of improving north-south links in Wales. The road links aren't great and are there bigger benefits than purely revenue? Would the North feel less disconnected from the Capital, less traffic? The A470 has very little dual carriage way which is another reason not to travel north-south.

Indeed - Reopening Carmarthen to Aberystwyth and Afon Wen to Menai Bridge would bring a fantastic feeling of a country connected but "feelings" don't pay the bills on their own.  The connectivity could bring about social changes though and like Metroland could be the forerunner of housing development.  Rachel Reeves tells us of the need for more homes a a tough target to reach after all, and population density outside The Valleys is very thin so there are plenty of poor pasture hillsides on which houses could be built, while still leaving 95% a countryside route with great tourist potential.

There are other solutions possible to the lack of an internal rail line across the country of Wales if it's decided that the country needs a line linking its three zones.

1. There is no need, as per HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) and HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)), to follow the paths of existing or former railways. Whilst they tend to define the natural barriers and routes, the old routes were defined by different metrics; longer tunnels, higher viaducts and steeper gradients are all allowed today.  Routes such as Rhymney via Tal-y-llyn Junction (Brecon Road), Builth Wells, Rhayader and Llanidloes  to the Moat Lane Junction area and from Llandecwyn to Maentwrog Road might be better / more central to the core of the country, and would provide a connection in places much nearer to where people would be expanding / travelling from.  Think of journeys between the economic engines of Cardiff and Rhyl which I understand could really to with a bit of TLC^▸ (three letter code ). And opportunities for connections East and West at Builth Road and Moat Lane and Llandudno Junction would give a spine railway up the middle double the potential traffic of a line so far off to the side that if you head west you fall into the undeverlopable sea.

2. Wales could be divided into two or three provinces of the United Kingdom - "Wales", "Cambria" and "Gogledd" each with their own PTEs^▸ (Passenger Transport Executive) - they are already separate operationally as we know with the special fleet based at Macynelleth.  As three provinces or countries, the need for more connections between them in reduced.

3. As a levelling up exercise, Hereford, Shrewsbury and Chester ("the Welsh Marches") could be transferred to Wales, giving that country significant economic clout, and providing a railway line without a metre of extra constuction integrated all the way from the south to the north.  If the good people of Chester threaten to riot over this, a curve at Shotton ...

[Red Squirrel]

The crayonista in me would love to see this line reopened. But having explored the area this summer, from a base near Llanybydder, I understand why many are sceptical about it.

I also very much doubt that any development-led opportunity will arise. Everywhere we looked there were placards opposing pylons. I think most Ceredigion folk would really prefer it if the world left them alone to get on with their business.

[Noggin]

In a similar vein to Grahame's post, would it not make more sense to build a rail line down the coastal strip between Aberystwyth and Fishguard via Cardigan, relieving the A487?

It's about 70 miles, and could make Cardigan Bay into a world-class tourist attraction - imagine a panoramic "Golden Pass" style train going all the way from Fishguard to Pwlhelli?

More practically, it would surely get significantly higher ridership than via Lampeter to Carmarthen, and have much better social value in terms of education and employment. Despite the longer distance, it seems that the route could definitely be faster than the rebuilt route, the coach, and perhaps match a car if Fishguard to Cardiff was upgraded and electrified.

The other consideration is that a railway built/rebuilt to modern specs could then carry trucks - if the Welsh want to put their eco-credentials where their mouth is, then surely some kind of rolling motorway Fishguard<>Newport, Holyhead<>Deeside etc powered by Welsh renewable electricity would be an excellent aspiration and the sort of things that an eco-minded Cardiff administration should be proposing?

[IndustryInsider]

In a similar vein to Grahame's post, would it not make more sense to build a rail line down the coastal strip between Aberystwyth and Fishguard via Cardigan, relieving the A487?

It's about 70 miles, and could make Cardigan Bay into a world-class tourist attraction - imagine a panoramic "Golden Pass" style train going all the way from Fishguard to Pwlhelli?

More practically, it would surely get significantly higher ridership than via Lampeter to Carmarthen, and have much better social value in terms of education and employment. Despite the longer distance, it seems that the route could definitely be faster than the rebuilt route, the coach, and perhaps match a car if Fishguard to Cardiff was upgraded and electrified.

The other consideration is that a railway built/rebuilt to modern specs could then carry trucks - if the Welsh want to put their eco-credentials where their mouth is, then surely some kind of rolling motorway Fishguard<>Newport, Holyhead<>Deeside etc powered by Welsh renewable electricity would be an excellent aspiration and the sort of things that an eco-minded Cardiff administration should be proposing?

Look at the huge fuss and nonsense (not to mention delay and cost) in getting very viable rail re-openings built, such as Bristol to Portishead and The Varsity Line.  The scheme you've suggested is not possible without immense cost and nowhere near the likely ridership to make them viable. 

Looking at the route you suggest from Aberystwyth to Fishguard via Cardigan, there are some fairly wild elevation changed from coast to inland.  In railway terms that means tunnels and viaducts which again add to the impractibility, and that's before the NIMBY's chip in.  All to serve a small number of small settlements?

Sorry to be blunt, but IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) it's a big 'NO' it would not make sense.

[Noggin]

I'm sure you're right. My point was really that the debate seems to have been about a reopening rather than reimagining.

[grahame]

I'm sure you're right. My point was really that the debate seems to have been about a reopening rather than reimagining.

Carmarthen - Aberystwyth is / was about re-opening.  Wider posts have a reimagining element, but we should remember that the physical layout of the land has not changed and that's where some of the old railway lines went and new build makes sensible use of the same valleys.  Social and developmental would also suggest the use of old flows that were rail but are car theses days. So:



An interesting tunnel from Dinas Mawdwyy to east of Dolgellau, and new build up the valley of Coed y Brennin from Penmanmaer to Tranwsfynedd.  Other passes at Tallerdig are on exiting lines of rebuilds via Rhayader.  Bleaneau Tunnel used to get you under the pile of slate.

[grahame]

From Wales Online

A major study into restarting a rail link in Gwynedd has unveiled a preferred route for a train-tram service. The route between Bangor and Afon Wen on the Llyn Peninsula was closed in the Beeching cuts of the 1960s.

Campaigners have long called for a line to be reinstated and a feasibility study was ordered by Transport for Wales. The North West Wales Feasibility Report by AtkinsRéalis has now been published which shows a preferred route and the many challenges any new line would face.

We don't have a separate Afon Wen to Bangor thread ... because our discussions here have so much been looking at the complete north to south link.  And the work being done by Atkins disappoints many because it's tram trained and street running - not briiant for freight and the idea of getting on a tram at Cardiff Bay, all stops to Cortyon and onwards to Amlwch would be slow and not attractive.