Delay Repay - Dodgy Data

[whole diary]

[Hafren]

I've had a bit of an issue with a GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) Delay Repay claim. It's only a 15 minute delay but I'm not inclined to let it go because (1) it's been a bad train week generally so I'm not feeling sympathetic (not something anyone can totally prevent but still a huge inconvenience) and  (2) if there's a systemic issue with the claim process it could affect more significant claims and needs fixing.

Intended to catch the 17:42 from CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains), arriving SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) 18:33. RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website) shows it departed CDF 18:02 and arrived SWA 18:58. That's a 25 minute delay.
In the end I took the 17:47 (TfW), which itself arrived 18:55, so my total delay was still 22m.
The claim remains with GWR because my intended journey was on their train, and that's what pushes me over the 15m threshold.

GWR's response:
The intended leg from 17:42 CARDIFF CENTRAL left at 18:02, scheduled to arrive at SWANSEA at 18:33, actually arrived 18:36.

I just can't see where that 18:36 comes from. I've double-checked the date on my claim, and checked the times logged on RTT.  My claim is correct. Even if it skip-stopped and had found a way to overtake the 17:47 (I'd have noticed it being looped!) the journey just can't be done in 34 minutes!

OK... perhaps they've made honest mistake... so I logged an appeal, noting the likely data glitch. But I've had the same outcome.

I just can't see where the data's come from, given that the logs on RTT are correct, and I assume their data source is ultimately the same. Is the initial claim processed by a human or fully automated?

Do I just re-appeal? At some point perhaps someone far enough up the chain can realise the data is dodgy, given how much time was allegedly recovered!

[ChrisB]

I have to say that I thought you could only claim for the delay to the service you actually travel on, even if that one was preceded by another. If you changed you mind to travel on the earlier service, you had to claim for that service.

[Hafren]

I've sometimes pondered that one, as I have been known to get up earlier to avoid a cancellation.

However on this occasion I travelled on a later service as next available alternative. It just happened to arrive earlier than the delayed one because of the delay. It doesn't make a material difference to this particular claim - either way I'm delayed by 15-29 minutes, so it's an incidental note; the issue is that the arrival time stated by GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) comes from nowhere.

[grahame]

I have to say that I thought you could only claim for the delay to the service you actually travel on, ...

No, Chris.  I works for connections too.  I've been on a train delayed by 10 minutes which failed to make an "advertised" connection into an hourly ongoing service.  Waited around for an hour for the next ongoing train, which was 5 minutes late.     Maximum delay to services - 10 minutes, no repay.  Delay to journey - 65 minutes, so repay for over an hour.   Or perhaps I'm on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) file as being an honest but awkward bugger and that helps them make their decision.

[stuving]

I take it this was 1B21 on 13/6/23. Liverail/Livetrain (or Open Rail) does indeed show it as arriving SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) 1836, 4 late. However, that's after it left Neath 1843, so you are entitled to think the system has got mixed up. The departure time of the continuing part of the train is 1908, agreeing with RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website).

I suspect a conflict between different data feeds. Livetrain has "TRUST^▸ (Train Running System TOPS) Event Data" as its heading, while RTT shows "TD(C6)" (i.e. train describer data) for its times. GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) may be using this Open Rail software as a simple tool, or internal access to TRUST, with similar results. RTT would not be much use to them because of its limited history. They ought not to need "amateur" open data service at all, so it's probably a case of relying of TRUST data. But you need a real expert in this to identify the real answer.

[Hafren]

I take it this was 1B21 on 13/6/23. Liverail/Livetrain (or Open Rail) does indeed show it as arriving SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) 1836, 4 late. However, that's after it left Neath 1843, so you are entitled to think the system has got mixed up. The departure time of the continuing part of the train is 1908, agreeing with RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website).

I suspect a conflict between different data feeds. Livetrain has "TRUST^▸ (Train Running System TOPS) Event Data" as its heading, while RTT shows "TD(C6)" (i.e. train describer data) for its times. GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) may be using this Open Rail software as a simple tool, or internal access to TRUST, with similar results. RTT would not be much use to them because of its limited history. They ought not to need "amateur" open data service at all, so it's probably a case of relying of TRUST data. But you need a real expert in this to identify the real answer.

That's useful to know. Now the appeal is done I have to follow complaint procedure, but hopefully if a human looks into it properly they can see there's unrealistic data. I'll present a screenshot of RTT (live data will expire soon) – might not be "admissible" but at least as evidence to say there's an error to investigate. Part of me says forget it for £1.25, but I have a thing about companies giving false information, and not correcting it when given the opportunity.

I note on RTT that a London train left SWA P3 at 18:28, then the stock from an earlier arrival was presumably shunted back in to form the 19:23. Perhaps that shunt arrived at 18:36, and for some reason the wrong headcode was entered. In the RTT world, the arrival of the real train would override that, but maybe internal systems work differently. Not particularly relevant to the claim, but satisfying curiosity as to how something happened can make it more palatable!

[ChrisB]

I have to say that I thought you could only claim for the delay to the service you actually travel on, ...

No, Chris.  I works for connections too.  I've been on a train delayed by 10 minutes which failed to make an "advertised" connection into an hourly ongoing service.  Waited around for an hour for the next ongoing train, which was 5 minutes late.     Maximum delay to services - 10 minutes, no repay.  Delay to journey - 65 minutes, so repay for over an hour.   Or perhaps I'm on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) file as being an honest but awkward bugger and that helps them make their decision.

Agree wholeheartedly Graham, and I am aware - but this wasn't a connection.

[grahame]

I have to say that I thought you could only claim for the delay to the service you actually travel on, ...

No, Chris.  I works for connections too.  I've been on a train delayed by 10 minutes which failed to make an "advertised" connection into an hourly ongoing service.  Waited around for an hour for the next ongoing train, which was 5 minutes late.     Maximum delay to services - 10 minutes, no repay.  Delay to journey - 65 minutes, so repay for over an hour.   Or perhaps I'm on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) file as being an honest but awkward bugger and that helps them make their decision.

Agree wholeheartedly Graham, and I am aware - but this wasn't a connection.

Fair enough - but your comment was a general one and I felt it needed clarifying for general and future readership.