See it - Say it -

[whole diary]

[CJB666]

Ignore it.

Over the last year I have had occasion to text BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) on 61016. For every text there has been an automated response to text or email descriptions of the people involved. The texts involve a weblink - which my phone cannot 'do.' Then nothing.

The issues reported have been mainly about 'tissue sellers.' These are at epidemic proportions on Crossrail and Thameslink - the open carriages are ideal for begging on. The lack of RPOs and train managers encourage these beggars. But they have also been witnessed on guard-manned GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), Southern and SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) trains.

On SWR trains the guards seem to be more active and have told these beggars to leave the train when reported to. On GWR and Southern services the guards / train managers don't seem to care. And there are no guards / train managers on Thameslink or Crossrail.

Another time BTP have ignored an issue was when a drunk was assaulting a women on a Thameslink service. This was due to leave Blackfriars at a specific time, when I boarded. I witnessed the assault, and sent BTP a text with all details of the train, carriage and brief description of the drunk and victim. I got a quick response 'what was the head code.' Er -  Thameslink trains don't display a 'headcode,' and I wouldn't have known what that was anyway.

Even more times I have been tail-gated at gatelines at such as Feltham, East Croydon, Brighton, etc., etc. When reported to the staff nearby they say nothing can be done.

And as for riding skateboards, bikes, or e-scooters on platforms this is epidemic. Yesterday evening in the rush-hour crowd on the bridge at Clapham Junction an e-scooter rider sailed past two uniformed BTP staff. I asked them why they didn't stop him. Their response was one of complete indifference.

See it, Say it, Ignore it.

====

[Ralph Ayres]

It would be interesting to know if the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) text number goes to a central control room or somewhere more specific based on location which might actually have the local knowledge needed. Certainly I've had a similar experience on the London Underground of sending enough detail about line/direction/time when reporting beggars only to be asked for a train number which I can't see when on the train I'm reporting from.

I'm not surprised railway staff do little.  They have no authority in law and risk being assaulted if they do try to take action.  That's a wider issue for our leaders and for society as a whole rather than the railways trying to address it in isolation.

[JayMac]

Railway staff do have some authority in law. Section 5(2) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 allows them to detain a passenger who fails to show or pay for a valid ticket and fails to give their name and address. They can be detained "until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law."

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

In practice this power is rarely used by railway staff unless the person is compliant.

For general anti-social behaviour and breaches of the Railway Byelaws all railway staff can practicably do is call the police. They wouldn't even be able to make a (much misunderstood) 'Citizens Arrest'. That power only applies when someone has committed, is committing, or is suspected of committing, an indictable offence. An offence that can be tried by a jury. Railway Byelaws only contain summary offences, tried by magistrates.

[TonyK]

Railway staff do have some authority in law. Section 5(2) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 allows them to detain a passenger who fails to show or pay for a valid ticket and fails to give their name and address. They can be detained "until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law."

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

In practice this power is rarely used by railway staff unless the person is compliant.

I saw this in action once when a most belligerent passenger told the TM^‡(resolve) on my ride towards t'north exactly what he could do with his ticket machine, and what he would do to the poor man if he didn't stop pestering him for a ticket, because he didn't need one but didn't feel the need to explain why not. The doors remained locked at the platform as our man enjoyed his victory in the queue to get off, the TM having sensibly withdrawn from view. When he reappeared, it was with the two BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) officers he had let board further down the train. The man had a brief go at them too, brief because they had him face down on the floor, and handcuffed in very short order after the first abusive threat, then frogmarched him off the train to applause. He had been detained by the TM, but subtly.

For general anti-social behaviour and breaches of the Railway Byelaws all railway staff can practicably do is call the police. They wouldn't even be able to make a (much misunderstood) 'Citizens Arrest'. That power only applies when someone has committed, is committing, or is suspected of committing, an indictable offence. An offence that can be tried by a jury. Railway Byelaws only contain summary offences, tried by magistrates.

Correct, although there is often another indictable offence you could hold someone for, like an assault rather than public order. In practice, it's best to leave these things to the experts, a point which will have been part of the training for railway staff.

[JayMac]

I too have been on a train where the method of detaining a miscreant was to keep the doors locked at a station until BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) were on scene. In my case it was Oxford.

Even this though is only practicable if the rail staff know they have police assistance available in short order.

[TonyK]

I too have been on a train where the method of detaining a miscreant was to keep the doors locked at a station until BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) were on scene. In my case it was Oxford.

Even this though is only practicable if the rail staff know they have police assistance available in short order.

Absolutely! Fine at Oxford and Birmingham New Street, less use at Pilning.

[grahame]

A wider thought on this thread

See it, say it, sorted ... could it be that "sorted" applies to the person reporting it?  In other words "once you have told us, you may move on".

If the rail network was to be frozen for every bag accidentally left when a passenger boards or leaves a train - for every piece of lost property - no trains would move.  If trains were sealed awaiting the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) at every station if a deliberate fare-dodger was on board - the network would be frozen. If every platform entrance was patrolled / monitored to ensure that everyone who skipped through without a ticket was stopped - the gate lines would be jammed, with passengers from one train still queuing to leave the station when the next train arrived.

But - adding the word "sorted" onto the end of the ditty to make it sound nice gives an unrealistic expectation that those to whom you say it will always take it further ...

[TonyK]

A wider thought on this thread

See it, say it, sorted ... could it be that "sorted" applies to the person reporting it?  In other words "once you have told us, you may move on".

If the rail network was to be frozen for every bag accidentally left when a passenger boards or leaves a train - for every piece of lost property - no trains would move.  If trains were sealed awaiting the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) at every station if a deliberate fare-dodger was on board - the network would be frozen. If every platform entrance was patrolled / monitored to ensure that everyone who skipped through without a ticket was stopped - the gate lines would be jammed, with passengers from one train still queuing to leave the station when the next train arrived.

But - adding the word "sorted" onto the end of the ditty to make it sound nice gives an unrealistic expectation that those to whom you say it will always take it further ...

Better than "See it, say it, sod it".