Can an off peak London - Bristol ticket be described as "cheap"?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

I joined a train at Swindon very recently that had left Paddington at 18:00 on its way from London to Bristol.  No more that 10 people got off the 10 car train at Swindon, and perhaps 6 joined.  In my carriage (6th in the train) there were three passengers including myself.

Ticket check soon after Swindon, and I overhead a discussion between the train manager and a fellow passenger.  It appeared that he had an "off peak" ticket (so a 51.50 fare) but was velling on a train on which that ticket was not valid.  He was threatened with a penalty fare / paid (I believe) 'just' the difference.  But the one thing that struck me was the statement "you cannot travel on this peak train with that cheap ticket"

Do members believe that it is right to describe a 51.50 fare from London to Bristol as "cheap"? 

While we are at it ... surely a train with just 3 people in a carriage is NOT peak.  To compare to the 14:32 Melksham to Swindon I travelled on yesterday - not easy (but possible) to social distance - around a dozen passengers in the section between door on a turbo carriage.

[Oxonhutch]

I thought that one's only liability in these circumstances was the difference in fare. One does after all have a ticket for the journey and therefore a penalty fare does not apply.

[grahame]

I thought that one's only liability in these circumstances was the difference in fare. One does after all have a ticket for the journey and therefore a penalty fare does not apply.

So did I ... but then it's fairly safe if you're in a role of authority to threaten higher penalties than could actually apply - customer probably knows know different, and if he does is hardly likely to complain and may well be more amenable to pay the difference on the belief it could have been worse.

[froome]

I joined a train at Swindon very recently that had left Paddington at 18:00 on its way from London to Bristol.  No more that 10 people got off the 10 car train at Swindon, and perhaps 6 joined.  In my carriage (6th in the train) there were three passengers including myself.

Ticket check soon after Swindon, and I overhead a discussion between the train manager and a fellow passenger.  It appeared that he had an "off peak" ticket (so a 51.50 fare) but was velling on a train on which that ticket was not valid.  He was threatened with a penalty fare / paid (I believe) 'just' the difference.  But the one thing that struck me was the statement "you cannot travel on this peak train with that cheap ticket"

Do members believe that it is right to describe a 51.50 fare from London to Bristol as "cheap"? 

While we are at it ... surely a train with just 3 people in a carriage is NOT peak.  To compare to the 14:32 Melksham to Swindon I travelled on yesterday - not easy (but possible) to social distance - around a dozen passengers in the section between door on a turbo carriage.

If the passenger got on at Swindon, then they would be travelling with a valid ticket, as the off peak restriction only refers to London to Swindon I believe. I have broken return journeys taken in the off peak period at Swindon or Chippenham before travelling on the last bit of the journey on a train that left Paddington at a peak time.

I agree with the main point you are making, and have made it to staff myself. Many peak hour services are now far less busy than similar off peak services.

[ChrisB]

All down to the ERMA - TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) can't change pretty much anything without the say-so of the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)....and a further drop in the farebox is not something that they'd appreciate.

[Robin Summerhill]

The concept of cheap is subjective. What consiitutes cheap to you might not seem cheap to me or vice versa.

In days gone by, your passenger would have been travelling with a ticket called a Cheap Day Return.

[ChrisB]

Also, ?55.50 is about a full tank of petrol these days. So about the same to drive (& probbly park too)

[grahame]

Also, ?55.50 is about a full tank of petrol these days. So about the same to drive (& probbly park too)

Shows how really hard the comparison is
... a car has capacity for a family but that train price is for one person
... a car has a capital running cost irrespective of the mileage it does
... there are cars that don't use petrol and the figures can be very different for them

[ChrisB]

Hmmm - I'm not sure that I'd be taking an electric car on that sort of length of journey right now.

[grahame]

Hmmm - I'm not sure that I'd be taking an electric car on that sort of length of journey right now.

Rapid chargers - 30 minutes to fill - at every M4 service area, range of car 100 miles, time to visit loo, drink a coffee, check the server and post a series of yes / no - s to a quiz also near as darn it, 30 minutes.  From here (I live in Melksham, Wiltshire) to London - I would try it with a charge at Reading. Online check for Fleet, back via there and a charge.

[Robin Summerhill]

If the passenger got on at Swindon, then they would be travelling with a valid ticket, as the off peak restriction only refers to London to Swindon I believe. I have broken return journeys taken in the off peak period at Swindon or Chippenham before travelling on the last bit of the journey on a train that left Paddington at a peak time.

According to restriction code YC, the one that applies here:

Not valid on trains timed to depart:

    London Paddington after 04:29 and before 09:16 and after 16:40 until 18:36*
    Reading after 04:29 and before 09:40 and after 17:10 and before 19:01
    Slough after 04:29 and before 09:30
    London Waterloo after 04:29 and before 08:15
    Birmingham New Street after 04:29 and before 10:30
    Not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Waterloo before 09:52.

    * Off-Peak tickets valid on the 18:30 service for Kemble, Stroud, Stonehouse, Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa ONLY.

According to that wording the restriction applies to the train. So if you had an off peak ticket from Paddington to Bristol and broke your return jouney at Swndon, then as I read it that restriction would still prevent you from using that train for onward travel. Clearly you could use an off peak ticket from a station not mentioned in that restriction code for onward travel from Swindon, because code YC would not apply to that ticket

I agree with the main point you are making, and have made it to staff myself. Many peak hour services are now far less busy than similar off peak services.

I empathise with the sentiment expressed, but a peak categorisation applies to a time of day and not how many people happen to be on that particular train.

I agree that this is a matter that ought to be lookied into in more detail in the future if and when we know whether we will ever have a peak commuter period again, but that is not a matter over which we should make knee-jerk reacions at the present time.

In any case, the capability of the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to do anything quickly is much the same as for a dead sheep...

[froome]

I agree with the main point you are making, and have made it to staff myself. Many peak hour services are now far less busy than similar off peak services.

I empathise with the sentiment expressed, but a peak categorisation applies to a time of day and not how many people happen to be on that particular train.

I agree that this is a matter that ought to be lookied into in more detail in the future if and when we know whether we will ever have a peak commuter period again, but that is not a matter over which we should make knee-jerk reacions at the present time.

In any case, the capability of the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to do anything quickly is much the same as for a dead sheep...

Mine was just a sentiment rather than a suggestion. I'm still annoyed about what happened many years ago now, when I had to buy a peak ticket for a service that was due to leave Bath Spa before 9.30am (to Bristol) and it arrived late, after the next train, which could be caught with an off peak ticket! 

[grahame]

According to that wording the restriction applies to the train. So if you had an off peak ticket from Paddington to Bristol and broke your return jouney at Swndon, then as I read it that restriction would still prevent you from using that train for onward travel. Clearly you could use an off peak ticket from a station not mentioned in that restriction code for onward travel from Swindon, because code YC would not apply to that ticket

Correct. It is perfectly valid to travel from Paddington to Didcot on that train on an anytime Paddington to Didcot ticket, and the from Didcot to Bristol Temple Meads on a DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) to BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) super off peak between those stations. A very sensible thing to do - it seems a bit wasteful to pay for peak travel on a long distance train that runs the latter part of its journey after the peak when you don't have to.

[GBM]

Correct. It is perfectly valid to travel from Paddington to Didcot on that train on an anytime Paddington to Didcot ticket, and the from Didcot to Bristol Temple Meads on a DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) to BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) super off peak between those stations. A very sensible thing to do - it seems a bit wasteful to pay for peak travel on a long distance train that runs the latter part of its journey after the peak when you don't have to.

Is this where the split ticketing system comes into play?  Hopefully their algorithms take the restriction codes in