Clipping Rail Rover tickets

[whole diary]

[Robin Summerhill]

Rather an arcane topic I suppose but one that interests me 

Over the years I have had a number of Rail Rover tickets, both continuous (eg 14 day all line) or "x days in y" (eg Freedom of the South West). In the vast majority of cases Train Managers and RPOs are happy with just looking at the ticket to confirm its validity, but some will clip it. When I had my 14 day all line rover back in July the Train Manager on the second train I used (a diverted XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) from Swindon to Sheffield) put a nice little hole in it somewhere near Chalford.

This got me thinking.

As I understand it, the whole point of clipping a ticket is to indicate to anyone else that might need to know that it has been used on the journey which has been paid for and therefore it permits; one might say it cancels it but, in pedant mode, the ticket would of course still be valid until the passenger reached their destination. With a rail rover, however, the situation is different because it is not the making of any given journey that "cancels" the ticket, it is the date of expiry of the ticket.

When on that XC train that Saturday morning in possession of my rail rover with a brand new hole in it, it struck me that I could theoretically follow that bloke around for the fortnight and travel on each and every train he worked. Would he clip it on each one? It would resemble a sieve by the end of it if he did... (for the purposes of argument we will discount the charges of stalking and harassment that might arise if I actually did it...  )

So what do others think? Are instructions issued to ticket checking staff on this matter or is it simply down to the whim of the individual staff member on the day?

[stuving]

I can see one more specific reason for clipping tickets, to make sure one ticket isn't presented by two people. That would still apply to a rover. Whether it's enough of a reason is another matter.

Plus of course the inspector may be worried about an inspector inspector checking up on their checking up.

[JayMac]

Whenever I've shown a multi-day Rover I've always presented it in a ticket wallet. Can't remember ever having one clipped or stamped. I did once lose a box on an 8 in 15 Freedom of South West Rover. I'd put the incorrect date in one box (day before, genuine error, not a blag) and an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) gave me the option of being reported for an invalid ticket, which would have meant the ticket being withdrawn, or having a box cancelled. I chose the later for an easy life. He put two crosses in a date box. On that occasion having 7 boxes instead of 8 didn't impact my plans. Although I did wonder afterward whether such an arbitrary instant punishment, with no paperwork or right to challenge or appeal, was just.

As for clipping or stamping Rovers I suspect some guards just run on automatic and don't really check what's presented.

[Robin Summerhill]

I can see one more specific reason for clipping tickets, to make sure one ticket isn't presented by two people. That would still apply to a rover. Whether it's enough of a reason is another matter.

When you think about the practicalities of this, you and your “accomplice” would have to be in different coaches, so much more difficult to do the shorter the train. I would say any less than three and you run the risk of actually being seen doing it. You would also need to start and end your journey at stations without gatelines, something that is becoming increasingly hard to do at any station with a decent usage rate.

I wouldn’t have thought that this method of fare evasion was likely to be that widespread, but I’d be interested to read what any train managers or RPOs on his group have to say about it.

As for clipping or stamping Rovers I suspect some guards just run on automatic and don't really check what's presented.

I’m tempted to think that way as well, but I would have thought that most of them encounter season tickets quite frequently. The amount of holes that could be put in an annual one doesn’t bear thinking about 

[Robin Summerhill]

Whenever I've shown a multi-day Rover I've always presented it in a ticket wallet. Can't remember ever having one clipped or stamped. I did once lose a box on an 8 in 15 Freedom of South West Rover. I'd put the incorrect date in one box (day before, genuine error, not a blag) and an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) gave me the option of being reported for an invalid ticket, which would have meant the ticket being withdrawn, or having a box cancelled. I chose the later for an easy life. He put two crosses in a date box. On that occasion having 7 boxes instead of 8 didn't impact my plans. Although I did wonder afterward whether such an arbitrary instant punishment, with no paperwork or right to challenge or appeal, was just.

I'm not sure I'm quite clear here. If I've got it right:

You have an 8 in 15 rail rover and you are out, say, on day 5. Today is the 10th, but you thought it was the 9th when you crossed the box, and now you are on the train on the 10th without a cross in that box. Then the RPO comes along and notices the box for the 10th hasn't been crossed and takes issue with it. You manage to convince him that you have put the cross in the wrong box and it should have been today, the 10th. So he then crosses the box for the 10th, meaning that you've lost out on one day, represented by the cross in the box for the 9th. Is this right? If so I don't see where "crossing two boxes" comes into it - you would have lost one day by this but if he had crossed two boxes then you would have lost two, the 9th which was already crossed, and whatever other day he crossed that wasn't the 10th, because you were actually using the ticket on that day.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, what happened seems quite reasonable to me. He had no way of knowing for certain or checking whether you actually did make a genuine mistake, or had in fact used the ticket on the 9th and were trying to get an extra day out of the railrover by not crossing the 10th.

I suspect you had, as the police say, "passed the attitude test"  Your story was plausible and, more importantly, explained in a friendly and plausible way. If my experience in other walks of life are anything to go by, it's the ones that sound plausible that cause the most problems because they might be telling the truth! A bolshie little blighter always gives the game away by their demeanour ...

[Celestial]

and an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) gave me the option of being reported for an invalid ticket, which would have meant the ticket being withdrawn, or having a box cancelled. I chose the later for an easy life. He put two crosses in a date box. On that occasion having 7 boxes instead of 8 didn't impact my plans. Although I did wonder afterward whether such an arbitrary instant punishment, with no paperwork or right to challenge or appeal, was just.

That seems an odd thing to wonder?  I should have been reported and my ticket withdrawn but instead the RPI showed some discretion and offered me an alternative that I chose to accept.

[JayMac]

I'm not sure I'm quite clear here. If I've got it right:

You have an 8 in 15 rail rover and you are out, say, on day 5. Today is the 10th, but you thought it was the 9th when you crossed the box, and now you are on the train on the 10th without a cross in that box. Then the RPO comes along and notices the box for the 10th hasn't been crossed and takes issue with it. You manage to convince him that you have put the cross in the wrong box and it should have been today, the 10th. So he then crosses the box for the 10th, meaning that you've lost out on one day, represented by the cross in the box for the 9th. Is this right? If so I don't see where "crossing two boxes" comes into it - you would have lost one day by this but if he had crossed two boxes then you would have lost two, the 9th which was already crossed, and whatever other day he crossed that wasn't the 10th, because you were actually using the ticket on that day.

Multi-day Rovers are issued in two parts. The first contains details of the ticket type - Adult/Child, Rover name, whether a Railcard discount is applied, fare paid, start date, valid until date, and the various numbers and codes that identify point of sale, method of payment, and the ticket's unique number.

The second part contains a number of 'boxes'. It also has printed on it, "Vaiid only with Rail Rover xxxxxx". In the case of a Freedom of the South West 8 in 15 that would 8 boxes. To validate the ticket for a given day, during the 15 day period of validity, you write the date, in day and month format, in a box.

I'd written the previous days date in error. The RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)), by way of punishment, put the correct date in the next box, and then put XX-XX in the last box. Remembering back now and describing what happened here I remember that my error actually cost me two boxes.

An example of a multi-day Rover ticket:

That seems an odd thing to wonder?  I should have been reported and my ticket withdrawn but instead the RPI showed some discretion and offered me an alternative that I chose to accept.

I don't see it as an odd thing to wonder. To lose two of my eight boxes (as I now remember) is a punishment for my error that I accepted at the time. With hindsight I should have insisted on some form of paperwork to go with the on-the-spot penalty. Everyone, whether stonewall guilty, innocent of any wrong doing, or having made a mistake, should have the right to challenge the penalty issued. Even if that penalty is sold to you as having been shown discretion.

That's why paperwork is issued and details are recorded for Penalty Fares, suspected Byelaw or Regulation of Railways Act offences, and Ticket Irregularity Reports. I don't think unrecorded discretionary punishments should be permitted. There's a risk if such things are allowed for a person in authority to say, "Just give me £xx.xx and we'll forget all about it." Justice should be both done and seen to be done.

At the time in my case (I wasn't as clued up on the laws and regs when this happened) I took the RPI's punishment as something of a Hobson's choice. I didn't want to completely lose my Rover. But hindsight tells me it was a very arbitrary punishment with no way to challenge the decision. Losing 25% of the value and use of my ticket was not inconsiderable. Its just fortunate that I only needed 6 (not 7 as I originally said) days worth of travel on that occasion.

[Robin Summerhill]

I'd written the previous days date in error. The RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)), by way of punishment, put the correct date in the next box, and then put XX-XX in the last box. Remembering back now and describing what happened here I remember that my error actually cost me two boxes.

 There's a risk if such things are allowed for a person in authority to say, "Just give me £xx.xx and we'll forget all about it." Justice should be both done and seen to be done.

Thanks for the explanation - losing two days now makes sense (and despite the fact I have had a FoSW rover twice I'd forgotten it was a case of enter the date in the box rather than cross the box for the days you are using it).

I would agree with your second sentence if the RPO had asked for cash effectively as "hush money" but he didn't. If the correct way to deal with the matter was to cancel the ticket completely then you got more out of what actually happened than you would have if he had strictly enforced the rules. If I was in your position I think I would have accepted it too, and consider the loss of two days as the equivalent of being charged a penalty fare. Of course, if he himself was breaking the rules by doing it and not cancelling your ticket completely as he was supposed to, I can understand why he might not have wanted the incident put in writing and to come to the attention of his managers.

[Celestial]

You make it sound as though your "punishment" was the loss of two days.  But surely one of those days was your error in putting the wrong date in?  At the very least you (or the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))) were going to have to fill in a new box with the correct date, as the way the ticket works would break down if you were allowed to correct a box (would make fraud too easy). So I don't think you can count the loss of one day as due to the RPI.

I still think you got a good deal compared with what should have happened if the RPI had followed the rules. There doesn't appear to be any suggestion that they tried to profit from the incident, so isn't that a bit of a red herring.

[JayMac]

In case I haven't been clear, I accepted the arbitrary punishment. But only because it was offered with the threat of a worse punishment. The punishment given was unrecorded. Is that just?  Where was my right to challenge the decision?

I fully accept I made a mistake. And I fully accept that such mistakes come with consequences. Those consequences though should not be arbitrary, without due process, nor should they be on the spot with the threat of worse if not accepted. You may think it was the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) offering discretion. I did so at the time. With hindsight though I see it as a fait accompli. Accept this unrecorded arbitrary punishment or get worse.

This is all hindsight of course but the punishment should have been accompanied by paperwork, setting out the infringement, the penalty applied, and setting out my rights to appeal and the process for doing so. Just as any other ticket irregularity should be dealt with. If similar happened today I'd insist on a Ticket Irregularity Report and I'd freely provide my contact details with ID. I'd also very likely record the interaction. If I then chose to appeal the penalty applied and lost then so be it. I had no recourse to do so way back when this happened. Older and wiser.

[bobm]

I have never had an All Line Rover clipped but have been told to put it through a gate line.  Inevitably the gate line swallowed it and it took a good five minutes to get it back!

[rogerw]

Never had mine swallowed but always rejected by gate lines

[Robin Summerhill]

I have never had an All Line Rover clipped but have been told to put it through a gate line.  Inevitably the gate line swallowed it and it took a good five minutes to get it back!

I've been told to put it through a gateline too, but it has never been swallowed, simply regurgitated