SWT Super-Off Peak Weekend

[whole diary]

[Fourbee]

I notice SWT^▸ (South West Trains) have planned to introduce a Super Off-Peak Weekend ticket (15% off the Off-Peak ticket apparently, no idea what the current "any day" Super-Off Peak ticket discount is).
https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/tickets-explained/tickets/super-off-peak/

Under "When can I travel" it states

Want complete flexibility with your travel times? You’ll need to buy an Off Peak Day Single, Day Return or Day Travelcard for your journey. If you already have a new Super Off Peak ticket and need to travel at a time it’s not valid, we’ll just charge you the difference between fares. (You’ll need to do this before you board the train.)

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) change of ticket type excesses can be done on board. Has this changed with the new National Rail Conditions of Travel?

[grahame]

That's an interesting one.   I've done a bit of digging taking Salisbury to Waterloo as an example

Currently off peak day return is £45.00 and super off peak day return is £38.40.
Reading the conditions, it appears that both the off peak and the super off peak is valid on any weekend train.

From January, off peak day return rises to £45.80, and super off peak day returns split into a Monday to Friday ticket at £39.10 and a weekend ticket at £38.90.

The off peak return will remain valid on any weekend train. The weekend super off peak return will not be valid into Waterloo between 09:31 and 11:59, or outward between 16:03 and 18:35 (and there are other limits - those are the headlines that will effect journeys from Salisbury though)

The SWT^▸ (South West Trains) site explains:

They’re available for travel from 2 January 2017 and will be at least 15% cheaper than our Off-Peak Day fares when you travel at certain times on Saturdays, Sundays or public holidays. We’ve launched these fares across our network so you’ll save money whatever your journey. You’ll save even more if you hold a Railcard!
These new cheaper fares will replace our existing Super Off-Peak fares at weekends and you can find out when they’re valid for travel, below.

There are other or lesser restrictions our of London and indeed the new super off peak weekend tickets are valid on any train on the following routes: West of England: Tisbury – Exeter St Davids; Warminster – Bristol Temple Meads; Westbury – Yeovil. South Western Mainline: Brockenhurst – Weymouth/Lymington.

Edit to add - that's my initial reading but I stand open to correction

[rogerw]

This is for many people a significant price increase.  At present the super off peak is valid on all trains at weekends.  Under this proposal many who had previously used the super off peak will now have to pay for an off peak.  I'm sure our friends at SHRUG will have a bit to say about this

[JayMac]

Yes. A price rise for many by manipulation of validities, dressed up as saving.

Shameful. A TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) treating its passengers with contempt, raking in additional revenue toward the end of the franchise. For once I'd be in agreement with any opprobrium coming from SHRUG.

Why are SWT^▸ (South West Trains) doing it? Because they can.

[Fourbee]

Sticking with Grahame's example, I plugged Salisbury to London Terminals into Advantix. The restriction UR has been modified since my copy of Advantix (checked on www.nationalrail.co.uk/UR) to weekend-style restrictions for this new ticket. The change has obviously been planned for a while.

Going back to SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s assertion that you must upgrade a Super Off Peak ticket before you board if it is not valid on the service you intend to travel on (and then, in practical terms, potentially miss that service due to ticket office queues etc.) the NRCOT^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Travel) says:

9.2
If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked, we are permitted, in law,
to take one of the following measures:
a)
To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see section 10
below); or
b)
To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly
served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts
or special terms, or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train
that you are on; or
c)
To report you for prosecution.
If you are unable to present a valid Ticket or to pay a fare (including a part
payment of a Penalty Fare to the value of the Ticket required) when requested,
you will be required to provide your name and address so that the matter can be
followed up.
9.3
It is an offence under the Railway Byelaws to fail to provide your name and
address when requested
9.4
Notwithstanding Condition 9.2 (b) above, if you are using an advance Ticket and
you miss your booked train because a previous connecting train service was
delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train
Company with whom you were booked without penalty.
If you have an ‘off-peak’ or ‘super off-peak’ Ticket, correctly dated but invalid for
the service on which you are travelling; you are using a route for which your
Ticket is not valid; or you break your journey when you are not permitted to do
so, you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and
the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

[JayMac]

Yes indeed. It should only ever be an excess fare if the ticket you are using is not valid only because of a time restriction.

[Tim]

Yes. A price rise for many by manipulation of validities, dressed up as saving.

Shameful. A TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) treating its passengers with contempt, raking in additional revenue toward the end of the franchise. For once I'd be in agreement with any opprobrium coming from SHRUG.

Why are SWT^▸ (South West Trains) doing it? Because they can.

I am amazed that the "ancient" software that allegedly runs the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) can cope with this new ticket type.  I thought we were reliably informed that such things could only be changed if millions of tax payers money was spent.   

[JayMac]

If a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) software fix is to be made to extract more money from passengers it's a simple bit of re-programming.

However, according to at least one person on this forum, if a software fix is needed to prevent overcharging, it is not possible without taxpayer's millions being needed.

 

[Fourbee]

They should amend the Community Chest card in Monopoly from "Bank error in your favour, collect £200" to "TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) not programmed for groupsave, pay £200".

Back to the original point, you make the assumption that the machine will offer the Super Off Peak ticket in the first instance. Numerous examples from both SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) machines in the past of this not happening and just presenting the Off Peak ticket.

My favourite one being the 20 minutes spent for a refund at my destination (SWT) ticket office refunding a full fat fare because the TVM forgot it was a bank holiday and I could use my Network Card without paying the £13 minimum fare. After much wrangling the ticket office clerk admitted there was a memo sent round advising refunds to be made due to this issue and "I could have just bought the ticket on the train" (potential repercussions for following that dodgy advice of course).

[JayMac]

Not an untypical staff response.

You couldn't by the ticket you wanted? Nevermind, just break the law and board a train ticketless. 

[ChrisB]

I am amazed that the "ancient" software that allegedly runs the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) can cope with this new ticket type.  I thought we were reliably informed that such things could only be changed if millions of tax payers money was spent. 

It's not a new ticket, just the validities have changed at standard, hard-coded (probably) weekends.- that was they were manufactured to do. What no one had the fore thought to do was cater for weekdays to be treated as weekends. Two totally different things in programming terms

They should amend the Community Chest card in Monopoly from "Bank error in your favour, collect £200" to "TVM not programmed for groupsave, pay £200".

Did Groupsave even exist when the software was developed? So of course its an add. Unfortunately, not all TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) accept groupsave, so how you could tell the TVM which train the pax were catching (when those pax may not have made up their minds either) to prevent sale on some TOCs? Those in favour, please explain?

Back to the original point, you make the assumption that the machine will offer the Super Off Peak ticket in the first instance. Numerous examples from both SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) machines in the past of this not happening and just presenting the Off Peak ticket.

Now that's just simple fraud, frankly - Each TVM ought to offer the full range of undiscounted tickets available from that station as a minimum, I do agree

[ellendune]

Not an untypical staff response.

You couldn't by the ticket you wanted? Nevermind, just break the law and board a train ticketless. 

If they do not sell all tickets should they not provide a permit to travel?

[Fourbee]

I am amazed that the "ancient" software that allegedly runs the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) can cope with this new ticket type.  I thought we were reliably informed that such things could only be changed if millions of tax payers money was spent.

It's not a new ticket, just the validities have changed at standard, hard-coded (probably) weekends.- that was they were manufactured to do. What no one had the fore thought to do was cater for weekdays to be treated as weekends. Two totally different things in programming terms

There are differences in price though, so the machines will need to cater for that e.g. Salisbury to London Waterloo, Sat 7 Jan 2017 is £38.90 vs. £39.10 Monday 9 Jan 2017 for a Super Off Peak ticket.

They should amend the Community Chest card in Monopoly from "Bank error in your favour, collect £200" to "TVM not programmed for groupsave, pay £200".

Did Groupsave even exist when the software was developed? So of course its an add. Unfortunately, not all TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) accept groupsave, so how you could tell the TVM which train the pax were catching (when those pax may not have made up their minds either) to prevent sale on some TOCs? Those in favour, please explain?

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) ticket machines were updated to offer groupsave after a software update (so potentially a group of pax could catch a CrossCountry train in error at say Southampton Central). Don't think the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) ones ever have offered groupsave.

[Fourbee]

Not an untypical staff response.

You couldn't by the ticket you wanted? Nevermind, just break the law and board a train ticketless. 

If they do not sell all tickets should they not provide a permit to travel?

so the NRCOC used to say:

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey
is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to
make at least part of the journey.

I cannot find the relevant section in the NRCOT.

[JayMac]

Because it's not there.

The NRCoT is silent on what to do if a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) doesn't sell the ticket you require.

Here, an intending passenger is caught between a rock and a hard place. Pay more than you should, or buy nothing and risk prosecution.

A very unsatisfactory state of affairs that may not be addressed until a passenger successfully defends a prosecution in a court higher than a magistrates. Or the Rail Delivery Group wake up and address this glaring omission.

It's perverse that passengers should pay more to satisfy primary legislation requiring them to have a valid ticket (Byelaws, RORA^▸ (Regulation of Railways Act 1889)) versus having a contract term that should allow them to board a train ticketless, or having paid part of their fare, when the full range is unavailable at their origin station's point of sale.

Coincidentally, I'm currently advising some acquaintances who were written up by a GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) for ticketless travel from a station with just a TVM. They'd wanted a GroupSave fare and assumed they could buy on board as GS wasn't on the TVM. RPI got them before conductor.