Maidenhead Commuting

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

That would make a very interesting legal case. 

[JayMac]

I suspect they may be able to detain you with the assistance of RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) or the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) until they can verify your Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) should you get an obstreperous TM^‡(resolve)

I suspect they would be acting beyond their legal authority if they did.

The legal requirement is to produce a valid ticket when requested. An Oyster card with a Season ticket on it, or one with PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) credit for a journey within the zones that has been touched in, are both valid tickets. Your legal duty has been discharged if you present it for inspection. Oyster is merely the medium on which the ticket or fare is held. If on-train staff have no way of checking that medium then that's their problem. Without the ability to check there should be the presumption of innocence. BTP will be mightily hacked off if they attend at the request of on-train staff only to subsequently discover the Oyster card held is perfectly valid.

[ChrisB]

Indeed, but you'd still be detained until its checked...happened to me eithin the zones....

[JayMac]

And you sued for being wrongfully detained I trust.

You cannot be legally detained in this situation unless you have refused to give your name and address. It's actually quite a serious matter to detain someone without legal authority.

What did they do in your situation ChrisB? I'm really interested to know. Did you submit to the unlawful detention? How long was it before your Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) could be checked?

And if you haven't kicked up a stink over the illegal detention can I also ask why? I'd be spitting feathers and shouting from the rooftops.

Whilst anyone has the power to detain/arrest they can only do so if the person is in the act of committing an indictable* offence, or they have reasonable grounds for suspecting a person may be committing an indictable offence. Even then the power for anyone to detain/arrest is limited to a very narrow set of circumstances.

These are that:
(a)the person making the arrest has reasonable grounds for believing that for any of the reasons mentioned below it is necessary to arrest the person in question; and
(b)it appears to the person making the arrest that it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make it instead.
The reasons are to prevent the person in question^
(i)causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
(ii)suffering physical injury;
(iii)causing loss of or damage to property; or
(iv)making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him.

Railway Byelaw breaches and offences under Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (except 5(2) which relates to a failure to give one's name and address) are summary offences for which only a constable has the power to detain/arrest.



*Triable at Crown Court

[ChrisB]

Knowing that all was in order, I refused my name & address. My Oystercard is registered, they could find out who I was.

It was 15 minutes before they read my Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services), which is the time it took another member of staff to arrive. It would take more of my time to complain, and it wouldn't have achieved much.

If it had been longer, or of the staff member wasn't apologetic for the wait, yes, I'd have thrown the book.

[JayMac]

Aha. You've offered up a ticket for inspection, no need to offer a name and address.

I'd still've kicked up a fuss with the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) concerned if I'd been illegally detained for 5 minutes, 15 minutes... whatever length of time. But that's just me.

If staff and their employers aren't made aware of the limits of their authority then they will continue to act outside the law. Rail staff already have certain powers, we (or at least I) don't want to see them get more by default.