That's a very valid debate to have, and more than happy to have it run alongside the poll.
Returning to the poll itself, my aim is to find out whether there is a general consensus in two key respects:
1) To find out whether there is a general consensus among those voting either "Yes" or "No" towards one answer or the other.
2) To find out whether there is a general consensus among the forum membership as a whole towards one particular answer.
With this in mind, I would be very grateful if all members active over the coming week could strongly consider casting a vote of some description, even if it's a "Dont Know" or "Dont Care" one.
This would be very much appreciated.
40 members have so far voted, so many thanks from me for that. If you have yet to vote, then as stated above, please strongly consider doing so.
Yes, I do agree with Patrick Hallgate of Network Rail, in the context of what he was rather pushed into stating at the TravelWatch SouthWest meeting in Taunton last Saturday.
My recollection is rather different, in that I felt he made the comment unforced, and then looked as if he slightly regretted it.
I think most people who have met Patrick Hallgate are struck by just how calm, collected and self-assured he is, particularly under pressure. I actually think we may be doing him a disservice to suggest he was somehow the lamb led to meek slaughter at the hands of baying
TWSW» wolves, even accepting (as I have) that the debate was lively to say the least.
Secondly, I strongly refute the suggestion that there was any 'negativity' from Network Rail at that meeting. Patrick Hallgate was very positive about the need to keep options open for the future - while his current priority is, quite understandably, the need to re-open the Dawlish main line as soon as possible, he was very open to the ideas of 'additional' (not 'alternative') routes in south Devon.
Whilst I obviously appreciate the one man's "negativity" can often be another man's "understandable reticence", I do rather think it is stretching it to use phrases such as "very positive" and "very open" when judging Patrick Hallgate's attitude to such matters. For example, we heard an awful lot from him about the cons of the "additional" route options under consideration, but very little about the pros, which we know exist for (pretty much) all of the options because they have been debated at length by members I would consider to be knowledgeable on this forum.
During his presentation, Patrick Hallgate actually said that a reinstated route from Exeter to Okehampton and Plymouth
could take up to an hour, not "1 hour 40 minutes to 2 hours". I was there, and I listened to what he said.
Sitting as I was a couple of seats away, I know you were there and I am sure you were listening. However, there is clearly a difference in interpretation apparent in your post, and (as ChrisB and myself have discussed in a directly related topic) this is where the wording is crucial.
What I heard Patrick Hallgate say was that the London-Plymouth via Okehampton journey time would be nearer 4 hours, in the context of a lively debate surrounding the Plymouth area aspiration for a 3-hour journey time to London. ChrisB offers the following interpretation, which I agree is correct:
Thanks for the clarification, Lee - that is indeed what Mr Hallgate said....an hour over the 3hour aspiration.
That is crucially different from Patrick Hallgate saying that "a reinstated route from Exeter to Okehampton and Plymouth
could take up to an hour" - my recollection is that he didn't.
Given that Patrick Hallgate definitely did say that the London-Plymouth via Okehampton journey time would be nearer 4 hours, in the context of a lively debate surrounding the Plymouth area aspiration for a 3-hour journey time to London, then I personally think that, even taking into account all the uncertainties over line engineering/service configuration etc, it is reasonable to assume that Patrick Hallgate has a ballpark journey time figure of about 1hr 40 mins - 2hrs in mind for the Exeter to Okehampton and Plymouth section.
Indeed, grahame makes a similar point in his recollection of the meeting:
a) I don't know the Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton route, but I did note with concern that some senior figures are evaluating it as an extra way to Plymouth based on the time taken by the few through trains that ran in the final, rundown days of the line, with lots of stops and start, rather than the time taken on it when it was a mainline, or the time that would be taken on it were it a new mainline with modern trains
Which leads us neatly on to:
Firstly, his comments were based on the proposal that any London - Plymouth via Okehampton line would be 'an additional line' rather than 'an alternative line' to the current main line through Dawlish. The crucial difference is that any such 'additional line' would not necessarily be built to dual mainline specifications, or standards, or timings - so any subsequent debate on those assumptions clearly falls away.
I have taken on board and considered all the well-made points along the lines of those in the above quote ^ I really have. However, I also believe that if (and it^s a big if considering its got to come out overall as being a better option than DAL) the route via Okehampton is chosen and rebuilt, then all concerned will want a competitive journey time in order to justify the not inconsiderable amount of money that will cost ^ regardless of whether they class it as either an ^additional^ or ^alternative^ route.
That is why I personally think that Patrick Hallgate was unduly pessimistic when making the journey time comment, and why I personally voted for the ^No^ option.
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