Buy a ticket before boarding the train....

[whole diary]

[EBrown]

Well, some interesting replies to my post but unfortunately some of you are not correct.

Please be specific, it's all well and good saying "some of you are wrong" but not elaborating means we can't learn from our mistakes.

Penalty Fares are not enforceable unless a court orders it.

What? The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994 clearly state:

Recovery of a penalty fare as a civil debt

8.  The amount of any penalty fare charged in accordance with these Regulations and rules and not paid within the period specified in rules in accordance with regulation 4(4) may be recovered from the person charged as a civil debt.

2. Check that the person demanding a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) is an authorised collector. Apparently they are obliged to carry i/d confirming this.

Yes, and produce it on request. Rule 5(4) I believe.

3

. Section 8 (2) of the Penalty Fare Rules 2002 gives you the right to pay only the full single fare for the journey, which means that, for example, any railcard discounts would not be available to you.

That is a minimum payment towards the penalty fare where necessary (i.e. You cannot produce ID of some form to confirm your address)

4. It is not a good idea to pay the fare and hope to appeal it later. Apparently most train companies use the 'Independant Penalty Fares Appeals Service' which is in fact owned and staffed by a train company!

It happens to be in the same office as South Eastern Railway. Appeals cost the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) ^8, so it's worth appealing just if you want to "stick it to the man".

5. If asked you must provide a correct name and address. This is the one and only part of the process where a criminal sanction could be applied for providing incorrect details.

Correct.

7. When a letter demanding payment turns up, write back explaining why you were unable to buy a ticket.

I'd be careful doing that, by saying "I didn't buy a ticket because of the queues" you have then admitted a strict liability offence (Byelaw 18) and also given evidence towards Sec 5 RoRA prosecutions.

8. Penalty Fares are a CIVIL

Correct.

[Southern Stag]

In Corbyn v Saunders, actually in 1978 so a good guess, the defendant effectively purchased a short fare for his journey, and upon arrival at the destination station handed the ticket inspector the short ticket and a note saying he would pay the remainder of the fare on demand. It was held that intending to pay the fare later on demand was not an intent to pay the fare for the purposes of s5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. It states in the judgment that it is not a defence to state that you intended to pay if you were tracked down. Plenty of case law states you are still travelling on the railway whilst you remain on railway property, so you can be guilty of the offence at the ticket barrier at the end for example, can't find anything that states that walking past an open ticket office or machine infers intent.

[EBrown]

P.S. the case law is Corbyn v Saunders I think it was 1976?

Yes, a prosecution under the RoRA - it was 1978 I think.

[vacman]

Knew it was 19 seventy something  I didnt even bother to read the numbered points at the end of the post by julian as they are just copied and pasted from the Evening Standard article from a few years back which is dangerous advice to follow bear in mind good old Byelaw 18, for which no intent is required! As for the contents of Corbyn v Saunders I appear to have got the content slightly wrong but I know of some RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s who have managed, through their questioning, to get intent from interviews that started as a straight forward byelaw! 

[JayMac]

1. Obviously make a reasonable attempt to buy a ticket-however you do not have to wait in a long queue and miss your train (Rule  
2. Check that the person demanding a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) is an authorised collector. Apparently they are obliged to carry i/d confirming this.
3. Section 8 (2) of the Penalty Fare Rules 2002 gives you the right to pay only the full single fare for the journey, which means that, for example, any railcard discounts would not be available to you.
4. It is not a good idea to pay the fare and hope to appeal it later. Apparently most train companies use the 'Independant Penalty Fares Appeals Service' which is in fact owned and staffed by a train company! Hardly independant then...
5. If asked you must provide a correct name and address. This is the one and only part of the process where a criminal sanction could be applied for providing incorrect details.
6. When the collector gives you a form check it is correct. If it is not then the train company has no chance of collecting a PF.
7. When a letter demanding payment turns up, write back explaining why you were unable to buy a ticket.
8. Penalty Fares are a CIVIL, not criminal, matter, except where stated above.

Having said all of this, everyone, without exception, should buy a ticket if they reasonably can.

Julian,

1. What is this (rule 8 ) you refer too? There is no primary legislation that refers to queueing time, merely Passenger Charter 'aims'.
2. Agreed.
3. Not wholly correct. The full undiscounted single must be paid for the journey you plan to make, plus the balance of the Penalty Fare within 21 days. As vacman says the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) reserves the right to cancel the PF and proceed with byelaw or criminal prosecution.
4. That's up to the individual. Appeals do succeed. IPFAS satisfies the 'independence' test set out in the Penalty Fares Policy drawn up by the Strategic Rail Authority in 2002 and now overseen by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about). (See para. 4.40 of (Strategic Rail Authority - about)%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Policy%202002.pdf" target="_blank">this document)
5. I agree on the point about providing a name and address. But failure to provide as well as incorrect details is a criminal offence. Also this is not the only part of the process that may lead to criminal sanction. As already mentioned a PF can be cancelled and a byelaw or RRA prosecution persued.
6. Agree. But you rather contradict your point 4. Errors made on a PF form have led to successful appeals.
7. So, do appeal then?
8. See points 3 and 5.

I concur with your sentiment about always buying a ticket before boarding if you reasonably can. But 'reasonableness' is subjective and may not stop a Penalty Fare being issued.

[Southern Stag]

Corbyn v Saunders certainly interprets an intent to avoid payment of fare quite loosely, I imagine it is argued in court that it extends to chancers, people who'll walk past the ticket office or machine but then try and pay the guard. It does seem that that point has never been appealed or at least appealed in a reported case.

[EBrown]

Plenty of case law states you are still travelling on the railway whilst you remain on railway property, so you can be guilty of the offence at the ticket barrier at the end for example, can't find anything that states that walking past an open ticket office or machine infers intent.

As you say the legal precedent for S.5 prosecution under RoRA(1889) is Corbyn! Passing an opportunity to pay at an open window was deemed, on appeal, to adequately engage S.5. [Extracted from Rail Forums]

[Southern Stag]

5. If asked you must provide a correct name and address. This is the one and only part of the process where a criminal sanction could be applied for providing incorrect details.

It seems you have got a bit confused, failing to provide your name and address having failed to produce a valid ticket is the only time you can be detained by a railway officer. That's under S5(2) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Reasonable force may be used to detain somebody who does not provide their name and address as well, such as in Moberly v Alsop in 1992 where a "leading railway" (not sure what the equivilant is nowadays, but they were working on a ticket barrier) grabbed a woman by the sleeve to do so.

[EBrown]

Julian,

1. What is this (rule 8 ) you refer too? There is no primary legislation that refers to queueing time, merely Passenger Charter 'aims'.

Agreed, the penalty fare rules make no reference to queuing times if you read Section 7 (Reasons/Conditions not  to charge a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare))

The PF Policy does. The most relevant part is this:

Where penalty fares apply, passengers must allow enough time to buy a ticket, including time
to queue, if necessary. Under normal circumstances, passengers may still be charged a penalty
fare if they join a train without a ticket, even if there was a queue at the ticket office or ticket
machine.

[JayMac]

For ease of reference in this debate:

Penalty Fares Rules: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/rail-penalty-fares/rail-penalty-fares-rules.pdf

Penalty Fares Policy: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/rail-penalty-fares/rail-penalty-fares-policy.pdf

Penalty Fares Legislation: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/576/contents/made

Railway Byelaws: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws.pdf

Regulation of Railways Act 1889: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/contents