Doubling back with an overrun

[whole diary]

[grahame]

I think I read / understood from somewhere that you're not supposed to overrun on a double back.  Is this sounding like Mornington Crescent?  For example, a Bath Spa to Melksham ticket lets me change at Trowbridge or change at Chippenham, but not change at Westbury (cos I would pass though Trowbridge twice) or Swindon (cos I would pass through Chippenham twice).

On journey (out of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) area) from Elstree and Borehamwood to Chippenham the other night, I changed at Farringdon - passing through St Pancras  on one train then back through King's Cross / St. Pancras on the other.  I did that to avoid a hike across the KX complex, opting for a cross-platform link instead.   But now I wonder - was I technically outside the validity of my ticket?

I know there are higher fares from Chippenham to Oxford via Reading than via Didcot, even if one or both of the trains don't stop at Didcot so it's the faster option.  Special case of a higher / double-back fare (and why should you pay more because the railway chooses not to stop at the junction?)   

What's the situation if you're headed for Bere Alston or Calstock from Truro?  Must you change at St Budeaux (but that's two different stations!), or Keyham, or can you carry on to Plymouth?   How about Cheltenham to Clifton Down - change at Stapleton Road, or Temple Meads OK?  Yeovil Pen Mill to Poole, I've heard Upwey is OK - what about Weymouth?

[paul7575]

There are all sorts of discrete easements to the basic rule, but the routeing guide instructions also include a useful catch all for group stations (routeing guide groups - note these are not necessarily the same as fares groups!) whereby you can double back if travelling between stations which are outside the group.

GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains
by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station
facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including
doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes
between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination
stations are part of a group.

So using an example I'm familiar with, Swanwick to Eastleigh is OK via Southampton Central - if it wasn't you'd only be able to use the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) stopping service and would have to change at St Denys.  However a very similar journey between Swanwick and Southampton Airport does theoretically have to use the local stopper, because the Airport is a member of the Southampton routeing group.  In practice, they don't seem to worry about changing at Southampton Central anyway.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

Paul

[JayMac]

I think I read / understood from somewhere that you're not supposed to overrun on a double back.  Is this sounding like Mornington Crescent?
<snip>
On journey (out of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) area) from Elstree and Borehamwood to Chippenham the other night, I changed at Farringdon - passing through St Pancras  on one train then back through King's Cross / St. Pancras on the other.  I did that to avoid a hike across the KX complex, opting for a cross-platform link instead.   But now I wonder - was I technically outside the validity of my ticket?

Were you applying Central Standard Rules, the Argyle Street Parabola, invoking the Hammersmith jink or using the 'all mainline stations are wild' rule? 

For the unitiated, 'Mornington Crescent' is a game played regularly on BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Radio 4's 'I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue' with rules more fiendish and arcane than anything ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) can ever come up with! 

[paul7575]

You're right in at the deepend there.  It's the 'Farringdon not London Terminal (from the north) paradox'.  It's well mental...

Paul

[ChrisB]

You can change onto the tube from Thameslink services at either Farringdon or KX....permitted.

[bobm]

There are some very strange things in the Routeing guide - take this one - how else would you go north?

Journeys from Totnes, Paignton, Torquay, Torre, Newton Abbot, Teignmouth, Dawlish, Dawlish Warren and Starcross to stations north of Tiverton Parkway may travel via Exeter St Davids. This easement applies in both directions.

or how about this

Customers travelling from Bedwyn, Hungerford, Kintbury, Newbury, Newbury Racecourse, Thatcham, Midgham, Aldermaston and Theale to Didcot Parkway and beyond may travel via Reading West. This easement applies in both directions.

or this!

Customers travelling from Maidenhead and Twyford to Newbury and beyond may travel via Reading. This easement applies in both directions.

[JayMac]

Then you get the anomalies where the Routeing Guide gives you multiple permitted routes, but the Fares Manual only offers one route.

An example: Warrington Bank Quay to Plymouth. The Routeing Guide offers up options via Birmingham and Reading, but the only walk up fares available are Route: BRISTOL. So whilst you can still go via Reading have to travel onward to Plymouth via the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) to Bristol and you cannot go via the Berks & Hants.

[JayMac]

It's the 'Farringdon not London Terminal (from the north) paradox'.  It's well mental...

Paul

I think that the 'Farringdon not London Terminals (from the north) paradox' should be added to the rule book for the 'Mornington Crescent' game! 

[ChrisB]

Farringdon or Kings Cross valid for tube connections to/from Thameslink services

[smokey]

IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) tickets from Hayle (and East of Hayle) are valid for travel via Penzance,

Mind according to the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) website (Named lines) the St Ives Branch runs fron Penzance to St Ives via St Erth

So I take it the Great Western Main Line ends at St Erth.

[paul7575]

Farringdon or Kings Cross valid for tube connections to/from Thameslink services

Yes, but seriously, AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) it does depend precisely where you are starting from.  From stations on the Thameslink route (ie as far as Bedford) tickets are supposed to be issued to 'London Thameslink' - but from further away up the MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) a normal 'London Terminals' is issued, and is not valid beyond St Pancras.  There is also a further ticketing easement (only until 22 March), where tickets previously valid over the closed section to Moorgate from the Thameslink route are also valid on LU via Kings Cross and Farringdon.

Then another area of confusion at Farringdon is that tickets valid to Moorgate via the GN (ie normally via Finsbury Park and Old St) are dual available on LU from Kings Cross to Moorgate but not available at intermediate stations on LU. (Basically for when the line is closed late evening and at weekends).  But this isn't valid for ANY service to London Terminals into Kings Cross, only from those stations that normally offer a direct service to Moorgate.  Needless to say regular discussion elsewhere suggests much of this isn't  accurately programmed into ticket barriers.

Maybe it really is a paradox...

Paul
 

[ChrisB]

THe original post made reference to cross-London transfer - Thameslink to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) - and that is what I weas referring to.

You are right that London Terminals is Kings Cross only.