Oyster PAYG on NR

[whole diary]

[Cornish Traveller]

  Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) to be valid on all National Rail services in zones 1 -6 from January, fares will not be same as present Tube Zone system it will be announced.

[paul7575]

One of the complexities of the new scheme is that there won't be any consistency. As discussed elsewhere, there will be three types of fare, TfL^» (Transport for London - about) only (ie Tube/DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway)/Overground), NR^» (Network Rail - home page) only, and TfL/NR.  So far so good.

First problem comes with the historic joint LU/NR fare availability routes, and there are quite a few. Examples are Upminster - Fenchurch St, Stratford - Liverpool St, Finsbury Park - Moorgate.
 
There will be routes where they just won't be able to tell how you travelled, and a good example is Ealing Broadway to Paddington direct with FGW^▸ (First Great Western), funnily enough. Here the barriers at both ends of the journey are joint LU/NR. A poster in another forum reckoned he'd been told by 'someone in FGW' that they had already agreed to stick with the TfL scales anyway, as part of their early agreement to accept Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go).

Another example could be Kensington Olympia to Wimbledon - again the barriers at either end are joint TfL/NR so won't be able to determine the route taken, ie District Line only, or perhaps SN and SWT^▸ (South West Trains) via Clapham Junction, as no intermediate gatelines will be passed through. 

It seems to me that the only way to predict what you'll be charged is to use the online TfL single fare finder, making sure you select the right 'gateline' where there are two shown, eg Waterloo[NR] or Waterloo[LU] etc...

Another fairly major change, gleaned from various TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) websites, is that from PAYG go live on Jan 2nd, all fares within the zonal area will be singles, either Anytime (Peak) or Offpeak - with an afternoon peak period introduced where they don't currently exist, basically the 3 'southern' TOCs. Offpeak Day Returns will disappear, to be replaced by two offpeak singles.  (SWT's site for example states 'Off peak return tickets withdrawn and replaced by Oyster PAYG off-peak fares' - can we assume from that wording that paper singles will still be sold?)

Paul

[eightf48544]

Very interesting. 

 Couple of points, what happens to the day Travelcard sold from ex NSE^▸ (Network South East) stations, which covers all TFL^▸ (Transport for London) bus/underground/overground and NR^» (Network Rail - home page) services in Zone plus DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway) and Croydon Trams.

Also I understand it that the advantage of the PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) is that once you've made several journeys in a day you get charged a maximum fare (sort of travelcard for the zones you use) no matter how many more journeiys you make.

Are you saying that if say you go Southern (from Victoria/London Bridge) to Croydon to travel on the trams that you will be charge separately for that journey and pick up the travel card fare again on the trams?

[RailCornwall]

The excellent londonreconnections site, covers the introduction in full, with further, in depth, links and full fare tables. It also outlines the issue of the new Permit to travel system or Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Extension Permit requirement for season ticket users intending to travel beyond their season validity, which will cause much confusion.

[paul7575]

Travelcards will still be available for through journeys (outboundary travelcards). The major difference from January is that for 'ordinary travelcards' (those sold within the zonal area), the Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) daily cap will now be the same as the equivalent Travelcard price. Currently the Oyster PAYG daily cap is 50p less than the travelcard equivalent, TfL^» (Transport for London - about)'s explanation is that this was because PAYG didn't cover the majority of the National Rail services within the zones, but now it will.

I think initially though, a few years ago, the explanation was that the 50p reduction was an incentive to use Oyster rather than buy a paper travelcard.  Academic now really though...

The London Reconnections article is good for a list of the fares, and most of the comments are to do with these extension permits - OEPs. It's a tough read to get right to the end, but the bottom line appears to be that the current system has a bit of a loophole that TfL aren't worried about, but the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are. At the moment, someone with a Travelcard Season loaded on Oyster, who travels from his normal zones, Z1-2 say, without touching out in say Z6, will go undetected and not be charged the correct PAYG extension.  The TOCs obviously don't want to allow this because unlike LU, many of their outer zone stations have no barriers, although they'll have Oyster validators. Hope that sums it up adequately.

Paul

[ChrisB]

But you try & obtain an Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Extension Permit (OEP).....

NR^» (Network Rail - home page) stations *won't* be able to load them - you have to go to an Oyster shop or an Underground station, before you start you trip. There's going to be a storm sooner than later about this...

[paul7575]

The latest TfL^» (Transport for London - about) board papers, which are somewhat delayed in what they report, reckon that most TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) will be modified to retail Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) products such as PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) credit (there's the usual 'but not SWT^▸ (South West Trains)' stuff of course).  In fact this is already mentioned in the weeds of some of the various TfL press releases.)   I understand that some of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s TVMs already do PAYG top ups. So once hardware to allow for PAYG top ups becomes generally available, presumably it would only require a software change to provide OEPs as well?

Paul

[ChrisB]

Here's hoping - but as these OEPs come into operation in just 21 days time......

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Thousands use Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) cards wrongly on London trains

More than 32,000 commuters are using their Oyster cards incorrectly since its introduction on mainline trains, Transport for London (TfL^» (Transport for London - about)) said.
Passengers are failing to touch in and out with their Oyster cards at the start and end of each journey, resulting in a higher fare.
TfL said in January passengers had overpaid about ^500,000.
It has sent information reminding people to complete their journey by touching in and out at the barriers.
In the first few weeks of the operation, which begun last month, refunds were given to passengers who incurred the maximum charge of ^6 for failing to touch in and out after their trip.
A spokesperson for TfL said: "The roll-out of Oyster pay-as-you-go from 2 January to all 350 National Rail (NR^» (Network Rail - home page)) stations in Greater London has been a huge success with over 500,000 journeys now being made on National Rail each week.
"Our original prediction of 200,000 journeys a week has been surpassed and is the result of Oyster pay-as-you-go offering a cheaper fare for almost all journeys compared to traditional single National Rail cash fares.
"To ensure that you pay the appropriate fare for your journey and to avoid incurring a maximum fare, passengers must always touch in and out at the start and end of every National Rail journey."
The new system allows passengers to use their Oyster cards to travel on NR services as well as on the bus, tube and tram.
The number of incomplete journeys have fallen from 40,000 since the roll-out of the new system and TfL expects that figure to decline further.
On Friday the Mayor of London hosted a summit with senior representatives of train companies to discuss ways to improve services for London's rail passengers.

[RailCornwall]

Maybe being my usual beligerent self on this but why has TfL^» (Transport for London - about) refunded these people? Is it beyond the ability of people to ascertain the revised terms and conditions applicable when services are introduced or extended?

[Btline]

I think SN, SE and c2c should become fully Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) compatible.

Smartcards are coming to the Midlands now:

http://www.londonmidland.com/tickets-and-fares/the-key/

But it is NOT the same as Oyster. Very sensible! Having one card for the whole country is obviously too sensible an idea...

[paul7575]

If they can load seasons onto 'Key', it is effectively the same as Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services)'s original mode anyway, which was seasons only.

If you are referring to Oyster PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go), it would only work in discrete areas like London. Unleashed on the mainline railway you would have to have a huge balance preloaded, to allow for a suitable entry charge. In London, this charge is no more than about ^6.00.

Don't blame the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) for not buying into Oyster though, they're all contracted to adopt ITSO formatted cards, like the national bus pass scheme.  This is why SWT^▸ (South West Trains) have had 'issues' because by now Oyster readers in London were supposed to have been altered to read ITSO format smartcards, this is according to DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) in the SWT franchise documentation.  Basically, DfT signed up to a promise they couldn't keep.

Paul

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) brand bought for ^1m by Transport for London

Transport for London (TfL^» (Transport for London - about)) has bought the rights to the Oyster Card brand for ^1m.
It means TfL can look at other uses of the Oyster electronic smartcard system, which is currently used as a pre-pay ticketing service.
It has said it had already undertaken a trial of Oyster on bank cards and mobile phones.
TfL has bought the rights from TranSys, whose contract to run the service expires this August.
Cubic Transportation Systems and HP Enterprise Services will then take over operating the system for the next five years.
TfL also has announced the early repayment of ^101m of private finance initiative debt, owed to TranSys.
A spokesman said this had delivered ^4m savings in interest payments.
Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor of London's transport adviser, said: ''Oyster has the potential to be used for so much more than simply getting around the capital. And the technology is there to make it even more convenient for Londoners to use by integrating it into mobile phones or bank cards."