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Author Topic: Heathrow Airport - plans for expansion: ongoing discussion, merged posts  (Read 9816 times)
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2025, 11:32:19 »

I think they will approve LHR expansion, mainly because the taxpayer will not have much in the way of spend, most will be private sector.

I'd be surprised if the timing of the change in planning laws, particularly restricting the ability to escalate and prolong objections is a coincidence in this context.
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« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2025, 18:04:06 »

I think they will approve LHR expansion, mainly because the taxpayer will not have much in the way of spend, most will be private sector.

I'd be surprised if the timing of the change in planning laws, particularly restricting the ability to escalate and prolong objections is a coincidence in this context.

The Labour Government will want to prove that they are not a political party of 'dither and delay' of Parliament  but just get things done ('dither and delay' of Parliament a Bojo quote)
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2025, 11:56:31 »

And now it's official.......

https://metro.co.uk/2025/01/29/heathrows-third-runway-given-green-light-for-140000000-passengers-a-year-22454631/
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eightonedee
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« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2025, 12:58:14 »

Clearly BoJo forgot to put a lot of his old policy papers through the shredder when he left, and someone has found them and re-used them.

The 0.43% increase in GDP sounds like something easily lost in a rounding error, but note that only half of it is stated to benefit the rest of the UK (United Kingdom) outside London and the South-east. Perhaps someone can do the maths and work out whether it might fund Portishead and the Fawley branch.

Anyway - looking forward to the revival of the Garden Bridge!
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TonyK
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« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2025, 15:44:30 »


...again. Plans for a third runway have been put forward, resisted, scrapped and put forward again since before the second runway was built.
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« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2025, 15:48:42 »

And Sadiq Khan knows where his votes are - & has already come out fighting against it.  Lips sealed
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« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2025, 13:45:53 »

It seems obvious to me, given that any developments at Heathrow are unlikely to happen for quite some time, that bringing the second runway at Gatwick, which I understand is currently used in emergencies only, into live use would be the best quick fix for the stated lack of capacity issues. There appears to be plenty of room for upgraded and/or new terminal facilities.
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2025, 17:05:16 »

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

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Heathrow's third runway can be built in 10 years, Reeves says

Heathrow's third runway can be built and operating in a decade's time, Chancellor Rachel Reeves has said.

Reeves told the BBC she wanted to see "spades in the ground" in the current Parliament and planes to start using the runway by 2035.

She also said that Sadiq Khan, the Labour Mayor of London who is opposed to Heathrow's expansion, could not stop the new runway.

Shadow chancellor Mel Stride said the Conservatives were in favour of a third runway at Heathrow "in principle" but "it remains to be seen" whether it can be built in a decade.

The extra runway at Heathrow was one of a number of infrastructure projects announced by the chancellor on Wednesday as part of the government's plans to boost economic growth.

"We think that we can get flights off within a decade," Reeves told the BBC. "I say that because we're not just announcing that we back it, we are changing the way that our planning system works to make it easier to deliver projects like the third runway at Heathrow."

When asked if Sadiq Khan could stop the expansion the chancellor said "no". "There can be judicial reviews but we are confident that this airport expansion will happen, that we will get the third runway built," she said.

Some have argued that it will take much longer than a decade for a third runway at Heathrow to become reality.



A formal planning process has to take place, which could take between 18 months and two years. Any judicial review of the plan could take another year and a half, while actually building the runway could take about seven years.

The airport's expansion is highly controversial - facing opposition from environmental groups, local authorities and nearby residents.

Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary has called the plan "a dead cat. If it ever arrives, it will be about 2040, 2045 or 2050... it will not deliver any growth," he said on Wednesday.

The Green Party has called Heathrow's expansion the "definition of irresponsible", with the party's co-leader, Adrian Ramsay, saying it was a "fantasy" that the projects could be done without environmental damage.

Reeves was questioned over her previous opposition to the expansion of Leeds-Bradford airport over air and noise pollution grounds. "If Leeds-Bradford came back with plans to expand I would support these because I think things have changed significantly in the past few years," she said.

She said there were now more efficient plane engines and the use of sustainable aviation fuel was a "game changer". However, supplies of this fuel are currently very low. According to the European regulator EASA» (European Aviation Safety Agency - about), they made up just 0.05% of the fuel used in the EU» (European Union - about) in 2020. It also costs much more than regular jet fuel.

The UK (United Kingdom) government has introduced a Sustainable Aviation Fuel Mandate, which stipulates that 2% of all jet fuel supplied this year must be SAF, increasing to 10% in 2030 and 22% in 2040.

The director-general of the International Air Transport Association, Willie Walsh, has cast doubt on how quickly this can be achieved. "Sustainable fuel is a real thing, but we need it in significantly greater volumes than are available today," he told LBC on Wednesday. "Mandating airlines to use a fuel source that doesn't exist today doesn't make an awful lot of sense."

Stride said that while the Conservatives backed the third runway in principle, "it will take some considerable time. If the government keeps pushing on this it will be maybe the 2040s or the 2050s or who knows before it comes off."

Despite broadly backing plans to boost the UK's infrastructure, the Conservatives have argued tax rises in the Budget and planned changes to employment rights will damage growth. "The biggest barriers to growth in this country are Rachel Reeves, Keir Starmer and their job-destroying Budget," Stride said.

As well as announcing backing for a third runway at Heathrow, the chancellor also said on Wednesday that other projects would be supported to try to boost growth in the economy.  Expansions at Luton and Gatwick airports are being backed, as well as a "growth corridor" between Oxford and Cambridge, which she claimed could be "Europe's Silicon Valley". Reeves also told the BBC that when it came to planning and decision making over infrastructure projects "we need to do things differently".

It emerged last year that the HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) rail line was spending £100m on a shield to protect bats in ancient woodland in Buckinghamshire. The chancellor said: "There are trade-offs and the balance has gone too far in the direction of always protecting every bat and every newt."

The government is setting up a fund, which builders can pay into to help nature restoration, "but not necessarily in the place the development is happening", Reeves said. "So builders can get on and build, and that money can be used for nature restoration projects elsewhere."

Separately, a leading economic think tank has warned that higher borrowing costs for the government may mean tax rises or spending cuts if it wants to stick to its own self-imposed rules.  According to a report from the Resolution Foundation, the government is spending £7bn a year more paying interest on its debt than it was at the time of the Budget.  As a result, the think tank said higher tax or cuts "may be needed" if the government wants to keep its promise not to spend more day-to-day than it brings in through tax.

A Treasury spokesperson told the BBC its commitment to its fiscal rules is "non-negotiable".


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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2025, 17:57:40 »

It seems obvious to me, given that any developments at Heathrow are unlikely to happen for quite some time, that bringing the second runway at Gatwick, which I understand is currently used in emergencies only, into live use would be the best quick fix for the stated lack of capacity issues. There appears to be plenty of room for upgraded and/or new terminal facilities.

Gatwick/Luton expansion likely to be as well as Heathrow, not instead of.
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TonyK
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« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2025, 20:46:18 »

It seems obvious to me, given that any developments at Heathrow are unlikely to happen for quite some time, that bringing the second runway at Gatwick, which I understand is currently used in emergencies only, into live use would be the best quick fix for the stated lack of capacity issues. There appears to be plenty of room for upgraded and/or new terminal facilities.

The main runway at Gatwick (08R/26L) is over 3,300 metres long and therefore long enough for almost any existing passenger aircraft to use, the most prominent exception being an extended range Boeing 777. The second runway(08L/26R) is over 2500 metres long, some 25% longer than the runway at Bristol Airport. The two Gatwick runways are too close together to be used concurrently or alternately. The airport's plan put forward in 2013 was for a new runway of over 3000 metres, situated around a kilometre to the south of the current runways and airport perimeter. That remains an active consideration, but not very active.

Separately, in 2020 Gatwick was given permission by the CAA» (Civil Aviation Authority - about) to move forward with a plan to actually use the second runway. International Civil Aviation Organisation rules stipulate that the centrelines of parallel runways must be 210 metres apart at a minimum, and at Gatwick, they were 198 metres apart. The plan is to move the runway 12 metres to the north, build new taxiways, and use it for departures only. It was approved by the planning inspectorate in 2023, but I think the DCO (Driver Controlled Operation) application is still somewhere in the long grass. The proposal is opposed by those concerned about bats, newts, the continued existence of life on Earth, etc, and faces temporary opposition by such local politicians seeking re-election at any level. This would not stop the longer term possibility of a third, fully separated and longer, runway to the south of the present  perimeter.


I'd be surprised if the timing of the change in planning laws, particularly restricting the ability to escalate and prolong objections is a coincidence in this context.

I'd be surprised if you weren't, TG.
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« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2025, 07:41:03 »

Not sure I fully understand that they will "deck"over the M25.

Does that mean the whole runway will be built on stilts? Will it be sloped up to cross the M25? Or do they do similar to the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers, which would make for an interesting (?) experience.

Whatever they do will cause problems with the M25, and how much will that cost?

The other problem raised in today's press, lack of construction labour. Redeploy the Orange Army (where do the signals go)?
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« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2025, 07:48:08 »

I wonder if the western access rail link will also now be back on the agenda?
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« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2025, 08:35:09 »

And ideally the southern access too. Necessary to keep the traffic levels where they are currently or even cut them.
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eXPassenger
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« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2025, 17:15:54 »

Not sure I fully understand that they will "deck"over the M25.

Does that mean the whole runway will be built on stilts? Will it be sloped up to cross the M25? Or do they do similar to the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers, which would make for an interesting (?) experience.

Whatever they do will cause problems with the M25, and how much will that cost?

The other problem raised in today's press, lack of construction labour. Redeploy the Orange Army (where do the signals go)?

It will involve lowering the M25 and then building wide bridges for the runway, taxiways etc.  In France the A! passes through Charles de Gaule airport with the runways on bridges.
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 14:24:47 »

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

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Heathrow expects third runway take offs in 10 years

Heathrow Airport has confirmed a multi-billion pound investment plan to expand two of its terminals ahead of submitting proposals for a third runway to the government this summer.

Heathrow Airport chief executive Thomas Woldbye said he wants planes to take off from its new third runway before the end of the next parliament, which could be ten years or fewer.

The plans, which will be paid for with private cash, come after Chancellor Rachel Reeves backed a third runway at the UK (United Kingdom)'s largest airport last month as part of efforts to grow the UK economy. Reeves' decision to back Heathrow's expansion has angered campaigners and members of her party who oppose it on environmental grounds.

During his speech at British Steel's Scunthorpe plant, Mr Woldbye signed a pact to use UK steel to build new infrastructure. He also revealed funding to increase capacity at terminals two and five, and plans to reconfigure the airfield and improve bus connections.

The commitment to use UK-made steel comes amid concern in the industry over the impact of tariffs being placed on imports of the metal to the US by President Donald Trump. The US import taxes could lead to excess steel being offloaded to the UK at cheaper prices, with the potential to undercut domestic businesses.

While the detailed plans for a third runway at the UK's largest airport, are yet to be finalised, the construction of terminal five, which opened in 2008, required some 80,000 tonnes of steel.

The expansion of Heathrow is highly controversial and faces opposition from environmental groups, many politicians, as well as nearby local authorities and residents. Critics say increasing air travel would make it much harder for the UK to meet its climate change commitments.

"A third runway at Heathrow can not be a choice between economic growth and the environment," Mr Woldbye said. He added that it was a "collective mission" to grow Heathrow "responsibly within environmental boundaries."

The aviation industry is a source of damaging emissions that can contribute to climate change, and it's already under pressure to find ways to reduce its impact.

On Wednesday, Mr Woldbye outlined the expansion plan ahead of the new runway, which will see upgrades to terminal buildings to "enhance passenger experience and improve resilience and sustainability. This privately funded programme will upgrade existing infrastructure while laying the groundwork for a third runway, boosting UK investment and economic growth, with tangible benefits felt this year," he said.

The chancellor has said expansion at Heathrow is "badly needed" and could create 100,000 jobs.

Zengwei An, chief executive of British Steel - which has the only facility in the country to make primary steel - said its workers in Scunthorpe and Teeside had a "distinguished history of supplying world-class products into projects like Heathrow's expansion".

Gareth Stace, director-general of the steel industry body UK Steel, added that Heathrow committing to using domestically-made steel was a "major vote of confidence in UK steelmaking and British businesses full stop".

Some have argued that it will take much longer than a decade for a third runway to become reality.  A formal planning process has to take place, which could take between 18 months and two years. Any judicial review of the plan could take another year and a half, while actually building it could take about seven years.

Reeves has said she wants to see "spades in the ground" before 2029 and planes to start using the runway by 2035, but Mr Woldbye has previously warned the project would take years and need "Churchillian resolve" to deliver.  In his speech, the Heathrow boss said the airport's expansion plans will be carried out with "strict environmental safeguards"

"This project can only go ahead if we meet the rules on noise, air quality and carbon... it's as simple as that," he added.  "I want to assure you that we are committed to listening and working with our local communities to provide them with the certainty they deserve, ending years of doubt."

Heathrow currently handles £200bn worth of trade a year and provides a key avenue for exports, particularly for small and medium-sized businesses.  But Heathrow's infrastructure is strained: last year, a record 83.9 million passengers passed through its terminals with its two runways handling around 1,300 landings and take-offs every day.

Flights from the airport are currently capped at a maximum of 480,000 per year and in practical terms it has reached that limit. A third runway would potentially increase the number of flights permitted to 720,000.

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"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
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