197s now in service

[whole diary]

[welsh1980]

So back in November the first 197 entered passenger service on the Conwy Valley line. A sensible place to start them off being reasonably close to Chester depot and a single diagram that does the route all day that could easily be replaced with either a 150 or a bus if there were any issues. 

Last Monday they started being used on the Chester-Liverpool service and from today 2 diagrams on Manchester Airport-Llandudno (along with the Liverpool one so 3 in service today).  The Conwy Valley is a 150 today so unsure whether thats just substituting a 197 or they are concentrating them on the North Wales coast for now. 

I understand we wont get any in the South until the May TT change at the earliest, as to my knowledge training hasn't started at Cardiff and Carmarthen depots.  But the plan seems to be to get them onto all 175 routes by this time next year.  Fingers crossed all goes to plan. 

[Mark A]

On a 197 now, an evening trip from Chester to Newport. The only thing I'd change about the experience is the train spec*, and also swap out the several passengers who've treated everyone to TV and phone conversations on speakerphone. What's that about?

Mark

* This one's 131008 and rides rough with a lot of clunks and thumps. They get going quickly but the gear changes give something of the flavour of 3 stage orbital launches. The internal ambience isn't good when it's dark outside, the appearance is on the stark side, there are frequent halting automated announcements and as far as GPS is concerned they're a faraday cage.

The design involves a fair few problem traps for dirt including the junction between table and wall, and the window surrounds, the walls being white. From my seat I can see three cobwebs between roof and walls, and the plain glass floors to the overhead luggage racks have collected mice. To avoid the need for bilingual notices, the carriage contains the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) national collection of pictograms.

We're now an hour and a half into the journey from Chester and I've not seen a member of staff. Oh and the buffet's awol. Overall impression, not a train suitable for long distance travel (and several of the passengers unsuitable as well, but it may be that the current one is merely taking revenge on the initial noisy one...)

OK, apologies for this, I've just found I was carrying emergency rations, I'll have something to eat!

[Mark A]

A chance to reflect on this particular trip now and... hmmm.

Part of the issue might be that the interiors were evaluated in daylight - once it's dark outside the lighting and mix of surfaces make for a very harsh environment in which to travel. Top that up with the ride quality, engine noise, 1/3 - 2/3 door opening, halting bilingual automated announcements and screens.

TfW needs funding to reallocate 197s from the long distance routes to increase capacity on the shorter runs for which they're designed, at which point they then need an alternative set of trains lined up that are suited to long distance travel.

The link below is a pdf from TfW with details of their current fleet, allowing a comparison between capabilities of class 158, 175 and 197 trains. Compared with a 158, the 197 cuts the number of seats per 2 car train by 16 and the number of loos by 50%.

Mark

https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2022-01/Fleet%20Access%20Specification_English_V1.pdf

[Mark A]

Good grief: TfW + 197s = three classes of rail travel return to the rail system.

Mark

https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/ticket-types/standard-plus

[Sixty3Closure]

Finally travelled on one of these from Carmarthen or at least I assume it was. Very new and shiny with flat panels everywhere (well a few places).

I didn't find the ride as bad as Mark did and in most respects a big improvement on what has gone before. There is a bit of information overload on the screens although there is also lot of useful info there but it can take a while to cycle through.

I would agree they're not great for long distance travel. I'm always surprised that the direct Carmarthen to Manchester train is a two carriage commuter train.

While I think they are a welcome improvement it doesn't solve the capacity problems. The one I was on was two carriages and its not enough as you start to get to the bigger cities.

[Mark A]

It's... well, niche... 'Amusing' that after that 19th century dreams of a Manchester - Milford Haven railway, resulting in an unintended rail link for Aberystwyth, a village in mid Wales that may have once seen a train, and with a bridge constructed in a strange colour of brick that perhaps never saw a train - and even a couple of excavations marked on some Ordnance Survey maps as 'Quarry' that were actually the approach cuttings for an ambitious tunnel... and now, in 2024, the rail network has persistent daily services between... yes,  Manchester and Milford Haven,  the rolling stock sporting such things as multiple flat screen colour monitors, devices that even I regularly regard as science fiction and which our c19th forebears would have considered utterly outlandish.

Mark, with usual apologies for the length of that sentence.

[grahame]

.
I would agree they're not great for long distance travel. I'm always surprised that the direct Carmarthen to Manchester train is a two carriage commuter train.

Only about 1 passenger in 80 leaving Milford Haven is headed for Manchester Piccadilly.   But only 1 in every 39,000 leaving Manchester Piccadilly is headed for Milford Haven.  Does this suggest loads of people deserting Wales?

[Hafren]

The point about the 'commuter train' is interesting.

It seems to be that suburban trains are improving over time, but express trains are deteriorating.

Suburban trains are losing 3+2 low-backed seating, no longer have doors to every seating bay, often gaining air conditioning, etc.  (Typically, YMMV^▸ (Your Method/Mileage May Vary) etc) The contrast was quite noticeable when TFW borrowed a couple of 150s from Northern, which still had older suburban-style seating.
Express trains often seem to be sacrificing luggage space for seating and often the end-saloon arrangement is done away with. Some may also observe catering changes.

In fact, in many cases the two are being merged, and the 197 is perhaps quite a good example of this. Hopefully, however, 2 car trains on long-distance routes have had their day. When the 158s were introduced, 2 cars became something of a standard except in a few areas, but 3 car variants became more common with newer classes.

[welsh1980]

I think the 197s are more than adequate for long distance travel. The only things that lets them down is not enough carriages.  All too often there are still 2 car 197s working from South Wales to Manchester which are full and standing at certain times. When we get the promised 5 car service (which is planned between Swansea-Manchester) things should improve hugely. 

The ride quality on a 197 can be a little rough at certain places.  Two places ive noticed it are Llanelli to Carmarthen and The Conwy Valley line.  Also there is less luggage space and less toilets than the 175s they replaced but overall I do think they are worthy successor to the 175s.    The overhead luggage area is much better than a 175 which does compensate a little for less luggage racks than the 175s had. 

A good proportion of passengers are making short journeys e.g from one of the towns on the marches to Cardiff, Hereford or Shrewsbury.  Some make long distance journeys but we also have the 2 hourly MK4 trains which is an option for long distance passengers with better ride quality, buffet coach and first class available.