Central door locking and bars over window on heritage trains?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

From the Telegraph

Steam trains could be forced off the tracks by new tougher safety rules, heritage railway boss warns

Historic steam trains - like the "Harry Potter" Jacobite Express in Scotland - could be forced off the tracks unless they fork out millions to comply with tough new health and safety laws, a railway boss has warned.

Heritage railway companies have been ordered to place bars over the drop-down windows of their 1950s-built Mark I former British Rail carriages to prevent excited passengers leaning out to take photographs while trains are moving.

The new safety measures were ordered by regulator the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) (Office of Rail and Road) following the tragic death of a railway commuter in 2016 on the Gatwick Express.

The heritage trains must also fit central locking systems so that doors cannot be opened until trains have come to a standstill in the station.

later

A spokesman for the Northern Belle, Britain's version of the iconic Orient Express, said: "Heritage railways like us have been given until 2023 to bring in these safety measures.

"This is going to cost millions - around £20,000 a carriage just to install central locking on each carriage. But you cannot put a price on safety and obviously we will comply as soon as possible.

"Bars over the drop-down windows will spoil the appearance of these Mark I carriages, though, some of which have been in use for up to 70 years without any other incident of this kind."

Regulator ORR (Office of Rail and Road) brought in the stringent new rules for all trains after Simon Brown, 24, was killed when his head hit a signal gantry in London after leaning out the window of the Gatwick Express in 2016.

1. The article highlights "steam trains" but logic would suggest heritage diesel too.

2. It is unclear if the ruling might also apply to other carriage types and / or heritage railways. 

The sad case of Simon Brown is covered at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=17345 on this forum. Although the article above refers to him as a "commuter", I would have described him as a "rail enthusiast".  A commuter is "someone who regularly travels between work and home" and I'm not sure that Simon was doing so on the Gatwick Express.

[grahame]

Public comment from Facebook

Total "overkill" (no pun intended). Perhaps the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) should ban passengers from station platforms, as they could fall onto the line as a train approaches?

It's always struck me as lopsided that anyone doing survey / stand work at a station - even on the concourse at Waterloo - needs to be safety briefed and signed in yet passengers who approach right up to and step on the trains do not.   The logic of a level playing field would suggest that all passengers must be briefed too, to be sure they're safe ...

[Robin Summerhill]

It's always struck me as lopsided that anyone doing survey / stand work at a station - even on the concourse at Waterloo - needs to be safety briefed and signed in yet passengers who approach right up to and step on the trains do not.   The logic of a level playing field would suggest that all passengers must be briefed too, to be sure they're safe ...

Whilst I agree with you here, there is an old saying about taking a horse to water...

Safety briefings happen each and every time one gets on a plane. And how many passengers do you think listen to them?

[southwest]

Sorry i know this topic is old, but this is a stupid decision! It probably means some classic and very rare stock will now never see public service again and will just become museum pieces. Surely something more sensible could be worked out? Given heritage railways only go to 25mph max I can't see what harm could be caused.

Of course the people I blame are these younger idiotic train enthusiast who hang half their body out of the train(As I saw many times at Dawlish/Teignmouth) with HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s it was only a matter of time before someone got killed. These selfish people are now spoiling things for everyone else!

[grahame]

Sorry i know this topic is old, but this is a stupid decision! It probably means some classic and very rare stock will now never see public service again and will just become museum pieces. Surely something more sensible could be worked out? Given heritage railways only go to 25mph max I can't see what harm could be caused.

Of course the people I blame are these younger idiotic train enthusiast who hang half their body out of the train(As I saw many times at Dawlish/Teignmouth) with HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s it was only a matter of time before someone got killed. These selfish people are now spoiling things for everyone else!

As you say ... an old topic; so much has been happening since that it seems to have gone off my radar, but reading back we were looking at a proposal and not a final decision, and the person being quoted was talking about main line operation where speeds in excess of 25 m.p.h. are allowed even if the newspaper talked of "heritage railway companies".

That said, hitting your head against a bridge / signal post / encroaching tree at 25 m.p.h. would kill you just as effectively as hitting your head at 60 m.p.h.

[Electric train]

I can understand the window bars and central locking on mainline running stock.

For heritage lines the fitting of window bars perhaps should be based on a route risk assessment i.e. has the route got lineside structure likely to cause harm to someone leaning out.  Controlling the opening of doors a trains run into platforms is trickier problem especially at galas etc.we now have a generation unfamiliar to the use as passengers of slam door stock, it has to be asked how many people have been injured by doors being opened while the train is moving, some publicity and perhaps a zero tolerance with passengers open doors while the train is moving, those who open the door on a move train are asked to leave the railway premises

[Red Squirrel]

I missed this topic first time round, so I'm glad it's been raised again.

I was amused by the Northern Belle spokesman saying that 'you can't put a price on safety' and then going on to say exactly what the price was!

On heritage lines, there may be a case for allowing old stock with droplights and non-lockable doors to continue into the future. But there needs to be a very good safety system to reduce the risks. Lineside clearances need to be maintained, and station and on-train staff and volunteers need to be vigilant.

For example, old GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) carriages do not have sprung latches on their doors. I once saw a train pulling out of a station on the Severn Valley with a door unlatched; someone spotted it and quickly turned the handle, but I found myself wondering how often that happens. You really can't expect the public to understand this kind of thing, and increasingly people will not realise that these old doors do not automatically lock (or, in this case, latch!)

For vintage trains on the national network, a higher standard is required because the speeds are higher, clearances are harder to guarantee, and the railway is (hopefully!) busier. Central locking and window bars seem like a move in the right direction. But with recent events calling the crashworthiness of Mk.3 stock into question one can't help wondering how long it will be before someone takes a long hard look at Mk.1's and asks how on earth they are still on the Big Railway.

[broadgage]

The risks are in my view much less at 25MPH than at main line speeds.
Whilst hitting the head against a structure is almost as dangerous at the lower speed, there is a good chance of pulling ones head in at the lower speed. At main line speeds, human reactions might not be fast enough.

I must admit to putting my head out of the window on heritage lines, and even on the main line but only where speeds were low.

[southwest]

Sorry i know this topic is old, but this is a stupid decision! It probably means some classic and very rare stock will now never see public service again and will just become museum pieces. Surely something more sensible could be worked out? Given heritage railways only go to 25mph max I can't see what harm could be caused.

Of course the people I blame are these younger idiotic train enthusiast who hang half their body out of the train(As I saw many times at Dawlish/Teignmouth) with HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s it was only a matter of time before someone got killed. These selfish people are now spoiling things for everyone else!

As you say ... an old topic; so much has been happening since that it seems to have gone off my radar, but reading back we were looking at a proposal and not a final decision, and the person being quoted was talking about main line operation where speeds in excess of 25 m.p.h. are allowed even if the newspaper talked of "heritage railway companies".

That said, hitting your head against a bridge / signal post / encroaching tree at 25 m.p.h. would kill you just as effectively as hitting your head at 60 m.p.h.

I agree with a lot of peoples opinions on the later comments. Most heritage railways don't have many close conflicts apart from hedges and brambles. As i've said the issue that i've noticed is people having their head & torso out of a train window.

[grahame]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-67804969

The operator of a train service that featured in the Harry Potter films has lost a High Court challenge against a rail regulator over door safety.

West Coast Railways (WCR) challenged demands for central locking systems to be fitted to the carriage doors.

The owners of the Jacobite - which appeared as the Hogwarts Express in the boy wizard films - said implementing the new measures could cost £7m.

It operates on the iconic West Highland Line from Fort William to Mallaig.

WCR took legal action against the Office of Rail and Road (ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about)) after it refused to exempt the company from rules banning the use of hinged doors without central locking.

Although posted by the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) as a Scottish story - this appears to apply to other West Coast Railway operations too.  Much more at the link quoted (hope the link works in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) - I am in The Canaries at present)