Toilets on local trains - Liverpool discussion

[whole diary]

[grahame]

And from the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) ... current trains in The Valleys have toilets, but new trains will not.  The Link is to a video which describes the problems people with certain medical conditions will have.

So that's trains without toilets where previously trains had toilets in Liverpool, from London to Reading, and now coming to South Wales.

[broadgage]

We have moved on from "what improvements can we make" and towards "what downgrades can we get away with"

When the inevitable strandings occur, a train without toilets needs to be treated as an EMERGENCY and not just as another delay.
IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), evacuation should be considered after 30 minutes and be mandatory after 60 minutes, for downgraded trains without toilets.
For proper trains with toilets, seats for all, and reasonable conditions, these times can be extended.

[IndustryInsider]

We have moved on from "what improvements can we make" and towards "what downgrades can we get away with"

When the inevitable strandings occur, a train without toilets needs to be treated as an EMERGENCY and not just as another delay.
IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), evacuation should be considered after 30 minutes and be mandatory after 60 minutes, for downgraded trains without toilets.
For proper trains with toilets, seats for all, and reasonable conditions, these times can be extended.

The current fleet of Merseyrail trains, Class 507/8, don’t have toilets either, so there’s no ‘downgrade’ in this case.

[broadgage]

The first post in this thread states that the existing trains have toilets, but that the new trains wont have toilets.
That sounds like a downgrade to me.

[stuving]

The first post in this thread states that the existing trains have toilets, but that the new trains wont have toilets.
That sounds like a downgrade to me.

Nonsense. The news item quoted states the opposite:

From the Liverpool Echo

Passenger and Train Operator responses to lack of toilets on new trains.

A look inside MerseyRail's new trains

Passengers travelling on the new Merseyrail fleets will need to hold their bladders - because none of the carriages will have a loo.

It's long been a mystery why Merseyrail trains don't have toilets, especially as some journeys take over 40 minutes.

...

... and then ignores that and goes on as if the lack is something new. makes better copy, I guess.

The material about how why and whether the new trains should have introduced toilets is all valid, of course.

[IndustryInsider]

Indeed.  As I've stated before I think all new trains should have at least one toilet, but the article does not say the existing trains have toilets - indeed there are no less than three quotes in the original post from people bemoaning the lack of toilets on recent journeys.  The new trains aren't expected to enter service for several months! 

[froome]

I see that the Merseyside Rail spokesperson quoted in the first post on this thread says that the majority of their stations have bathroom facilities available for all customers to use.

Is that true? I find it difficult to believe.

I have travelled a bit on their system, but not extensively, and apart from the termini, I don't recall ever having seen a toilet at any intermediate station.

Looking at the wider picture, would that statement hold up for the whole rail service? I'm sure it wouldn't, in fact I'm certain that only a small minority of stations have toilets available for passengers at any time, and that most stations, which are unmanned, have no toilets available. This is certainly the case more locally where I live.

[broadgage]

I suspect that nationally, that a lot of stations have toilets available IN THEORY but that in practice these are temporarily out of use due to staff shortage, vandalism, or breakdowns.

A classic case was the old Kings Cross Thameslink station. When this opened there was considerable criticism from customers whose trains had previously left from a "proper station" with station facilities, but that now left from a downgraded station with no facilities.
Toilets were duly provided, but almost never open.

[grahame]

I suspect that nationally, that a lot of stations have toilets available IN THEORY but that in practice these are temporarily out of use due to staff shortage, vandalism, or breakdowns.

Indeed ... even if all stations had/have toilets, will they be available throughout train operating hours and even for 10 minutes after the last train for people arriving?

I would take issue with "all trains should have toilets" (earlier posts) for very short runs such as Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Bay, and Stourbridge Junction to Town.   Also perhaps Slough to Windsor (if loos available at both ALL THE TIME) and Waterloo to Bank.

[Celestial]

Many local bus (or metro/underground) services take up to an hour, either in congested cities, or for inter-urban journeys.  I really don't understand why a toilet is deemed essential for local train journeys of a similar travel time, but not for a bus.

[IndustryInsider]

Many local bus (or metro/underground) services take up to an hour, either in congested cities, or for inter-urban journeys.  I really don't understand why a toilet is deemed essential for local train journeys of a similar travel time, but not for a bus.

In my opinion, mainly because of the risk of being stranded on a train following an incident such as a fatality or power outage.  Such a scenario is very unlikely to play out on a bus. 

Perhaps a small cubicle could be provided for use in an emergency instead of full toilet facilities.  It would usually be locked but staff could open it for passenger use in an emergency scenario, and it would take up a very small amount of space.  The most basic of facilities dumping straight onto the track needing no or very little power so it would work when there is no power supply to the train.  I know dumping waste onto the track is now banned, even though use of it would only be when a train is at a stand, and it would probably contravene disability and hygiene regulations so it will never happen, but just a thought!

[broadgage]

Many local bus (or metro/underground) services take up to an hour, either in congested cities, or for inter-urban journeys.  I really don't understand why a toilet is deemed essential for local train journeys of a similar travel time, but not for a bus.

It is not IMO^▸ (in my opinion) the NORMAL journey time that is the issue, but the abnormal.
If a bus is badly delayed, then one may alight and use the toilet in nearby premises, or as a VERY LAST RESORT* relieve oneself in the street.
If a train is stranded, as in the Lewisham debacle, then with the "keep them on the trains no matter what" policy conditions will become very unpleasant. Reports from the Lewisham incident state many passengers wet themselves and some soiled themselves.
Toilets are therefore essential even for short journeys, to cater for fatalities, wires down, ice, signaling failures and other entirely foreseeable out of course events.
Toilets are also required for local trains for when the train inevitably gets used on a longer route "better the wrong train than no train"

*I stress that I AM NOT advocating public urination, or still worse defecation, under any ordinary conditions. However in an emergency, to lower ones clothes and squat at the side of the road  is preferable to soiling oneself on a crowded train.

[TaplowGreen]

Many local bus (or metro/underground) services take up to an hour, either in congested cities, or for inter-urban journeys.  I really don't understand why a toilet is deemed essential for local train journeys of a similar travel time, but not for a bus.

*I stress that I AM NOT advocating public urination, or still worse defecation, under any ordinary conditions. However in an emergency, to lower ones clothes and squat at the side of the road  is preferable to soiling oneself on a crowded train.

You paint such a beautiful picture with words...………...

[Celestial]

I'm not sure I buy the argument that local trains should have the cost and capacity reduction of a toilet (including the ongoing energy cost of carrying it and water around all the time, and the cost of maintenance, etc), simply for the very rare eventuality that a service is stranded between stations for longer than people can cross their legs or clench their buttocks. On the valley lines stations are about every 3 minutes apart, and TfW has said that several intermediate stations will also have toilets. 

I prefer the emergency kit idea, similar to the hampers of food that used to be carried on Highland trains in the winter in case they ran into a snowdrift, though with climate change it's probably a flood that trains will run into these days. (In Wales the kits would have a Welsh cake, laverbread toastie and a can of Brains SA, all labelled bilingually of course.)   

None of the other UK^▸ (United Kingdom) tram networks have toilets - I don't recall an uproar of complaints in Manchester or Nottingham about it, and the journey times are only around 10 minutes less from the extremities than from the apparently incontinent heads of the valleys.

I'm not sure that anyone is in a better position on a bus either if I'm honest. Oh hang on, stuck in an unusually long traffic jam in the morning rush hour in the city suburbs and caught short? Pubs not open, no shops nearby so just ask the driver to open the doors, pop and poop outside and hop back on. Hope you've got your doggie poop bag handy for such an eventuality.

[Surrey 455]

I see that the Merseyside Rail spokesperson quoted in the first post on this thread says that the majority of their stations have bathroom facilities available for all customers to use.

Is that true? I find it difficult to believe.

I have travelled a bit on their system, but not extensively, and apart from the termini, I don't recall ever having seen a toilet at any intermediate station.

Looking at the wider picture, would that statement hold up for the whole rail service? I'm sure it wouldn't, in fact I'm certain that only a small minority of stations have toilets available for passengers at any time, and that most stations, which are unmanned, have no toilets available. This is certainly the case more locally where I live.

My local station has a toilet but is only open during the hours the ticket office is open. Which is Mon - Fri 6.40am to 12 Midday & Saturday 9am - 12 Midday but if you want to use it you have to ask for the key at the ticket office. I have never needed to use it during those times so cannot provide a review. Unfortunately I have needed to use it outside of those times. Fortunately the station is next to the common with plenty of trees. Unfortunately it is very muddy at the moment.