Simplifying the system??

[whole diary]

[LiskeardRich]

How can the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) justify 14p per mile average fares when ours are so high (81p peak to London 34p Super off peak)

Without wishing to detract from the very important point made by quoting the fares, it should be noted that DfT do not justify 14p/mile, but rather 14p/kilometer (according to stuving, whom I have no reason to doubt). Over the distances mentioned the difference adds up, but I'm afraid I cannot spend time working out by what amount.  10miles is approx 16kms. I'm sure someone else will be able to give the detail.

For 100miles /160km your looking at £14 at 14p a mile or £22.40 at 14p a km

[ellendune]

Its still 22p per mile and that is the average, so there must be many at less than that to make up for the fares we have to pay.

[stuving]

The figures are a surprise, but some things can be explained.

For Swindon specifically, there is the lack of off-peak return fares, and of nearby stations.

For those averages per journey; what is a journey? The ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) have successfully hidden any explanation of terms and methods where I can't find it. However, I did find this footnote: " A journey is based on travel from an origin station to a destination station. A train journey may include one or more changes of train, and one journey is generated for each train used." From that I conclude that a return trip is two journeys, as I would expect. Other than that I'm none the wiser.

As to the average revenue (i.e. income from all sources) per passenger km, it does look out of line with fares. OK, seasons are cheaper, but only make up about 30% of income. That will vary with TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), but national averages are dominated by the big mixed city-based ones so GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) and SWT^▸ (South West Trains) ought to be close to average.

I already have some figures by TOC for 2012/3, when the average was 13.3 p/km (so make a small allowance for that). It is striking that the big mixed franchises have figures very close to the national average, and for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and SWT it gives:

All averages in p/passenger km	FGW	SWT
Passenger income	13.3	14.6
Franchise receipts from government	0.0	0.0
Other	1.3	1.1
Franchised train operator income	14.7	15.7
Staff costs	4.0	3.4
Fuel costs (diesel)	1.2	0.2
Fuel costs (traction electricity paid to NR» (Network Rail - home page))	0.0	0.4
Rolling stock charges	1.2	1.9
Franchise payments to government	2.8	4.9
Corporation tax	-0.1	0.1
Other (including Network Rail charges)	5.7	4.5
Franchised train operator expenditure	14.8	15.4
Franchised train operator inc less exp	-0.2	0.3
Network Rail
Franchised train operator access charges	2.1	1.9
Net government grant	6.6	4.8
Other	1.1	1.6
Network Rail income	9.8	8.3
Network Rail expenditure	8.1	7.9
Network Rail income less expenditure	1.7	0.3
Total industry income	24.5	23.9
Total industry expenditure	23.0	23.3
Industry income less expenditure	1.5	0.6
Less net government funding	-3.7	0.1
Industry income less expenditure excl. government funding	-2.2	0.7
Dividends paid by train operator	0.0	0.3

The Network Rail figures are split between TOCs, so those shown here only relate to FGW.

I still can't see how that fits with the fares charged - it would need more details about the breakdown of revenue between ticket types to explain that, I think.

[TaplowGreen]

There are two issues here that I can see:

1) the issue here is the hugely complex fares system;
2) the price of most tickets being above the £30 contactless limit

Thanks - so I did miss something! But neither of these are insurmountable issues if there is a will, and (certainly in LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley)) I reckon the majority of fares are less than £30, so introduce the kit, ensure that it gives customers the lowest possible fare, and Bob's your uncle! :-)

[Brucey]

TfL^» (Transport for London - about)'s implementation of the contactless system does not actually respect the £30 maximum.  They use contactless simply to capture the card details (i.e. the software on your card is not aware a transaction is taking place).  Later on (usually overnight), your journeys are determined and the fare for that day calculated.  This combined total is charged as one or many "card not present" transactions.

My understanding is that TfL have received special dispensation from the card networks to do this.

Currently there is only one daily fare cap over £30: Gatwick Airport to Zones 1-9 (ex Gatwick Express).