It shouldn't cost more to get from Bath to Warminster via Melksham

[whole diary]

[Graz]

I have to get to work early tomorrow - 8am, to be exact. I checked Traveline and it gave me the option of changing at Chippenham at 6.24 onto the 6.34 TransWilts Southampton service, arriving Warminster at 7.13.  This gives me time to get the early bus out to the office from there without hanging around too long, and it would have been great as there are no trains arriving at Warminster between 6.43 (way too early) and 8.08 (too late).

Alas, when I checked the ticket options, the system would not let me get a return ticket using that route. The only option would be to get 2 singles, one of which using that route (^11.10 + ^4.95 Y-P back via Bradford-o-A = ^16.05!!) compared to ^8.60 for a return using the Bradford route. That's almost double the price!

I don't think going via Chippenham/Melksham should warrant such a price increase. Looking at a map, going on that route isn't much further out the way at all. I can get from Bath to Cheltenham via Newport for the same price as via Yate, so why is that not the case for this route? I feel FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) should make this route another valid alternative, especially if we're hopefully expecting more services. Imagine if trains between Westbury and Bath were extremely busy or cancelled and people were told they couldn't take such a sensible alternative because of a nonsensical rule like this. In short- make the TransWilts a valid alternative to get to Bath and Bristol!

[TerminalJunkie]

Looking at a map, going on that route isn't much further out the way at all.

It's 34 miles 30 chains via Chippenham, compared with 21 miles 35 chains for the direct route. (http://www.davros.org/rail/routeing-guide.html)

I feel FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) should make this route another valid alternative,

The problem is not FGW or DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), it's ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here).

The routes you can take on a ticket are determined by the National Routing Guide. There's an online version at http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide.asp, but it requires Javascript and uses pop-ups (lots of them, so your head will soon start spinning...)

The valid routes for a Bath to Warminster are on map CE: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/maps/map_ce.htm

Since you can't go via Chippenham without doubling back, it's not a valid route.

[Graz]

If Traveline is advertising it as a valid journey, coupled with the fact that it makes complete sense, I still feel the route should be made valid even though it does double back a little. Yes, it is longer and takes a bit more time, but the Westbury-Bath route is a bottleneck and that would be an easy alternative without the need of extra services.

Look at Bath to Cheltenham via Newport too...I'm sure that is doubling back, yet it is still valid.

[TerminalJunkie]

If Traveline is advertising it as a valid journey, coupled with the fact that it makes complete sense, I still feel the route should be made valid

There's nothing stopping you taking a printout from Traveline's website with you and arguing your case on the train. On the other hand, there's nothing stopping the staff enforcing the railway's rules either!

Look at Bath to Cheltenham via Newport too...I'm sure that is doubling back, yet it is still valid.

If it's a through train then it's valid anyway.

There are local easements regarding the use of the Severn Tunnel and Newport - particularly for engineering works - but at this point it all starts to get very murky! Link to uk.railway newsgroup

[BandHcommuter]

Why not buy a Bath to Melksham return (^6, valid via both Chippenham and Trowbridge according to the National Rail website), and a Melksham to Warminster return (^3.80). On the way back, you can use the tickets in combination via Bradford, provided the train calls at Trowbridge where you transfer from one ticket to the other. Total ^9.80.

[grahame]

Looking at a map, going on that route isn't much further out the way at all.

It's 34 miles 30 chains via Chippenham, compared with 21 miles 35 chains for the direct route.

Since you can't go via Chippenham without doubling back, it's not a valid route.

Chippenham to Warminster via Bradford-on-Avon - 34 miles, ALLOWED
Chippenham to Warminster via Melksham - 20 miles, ALLOWED
Bath to Warminster via Bradforf-on-Avon, 21 miles, ALLOWED
Bath to Warmisnter via Melksham, 34 miles, NOT PERMITTED.

It sems that we have something of a case of discrimination against the route via Melksham here; if travelling via Chippenham from Bath is considered as "doubling back" and is not allowed, why is travelling via Bath from Chippenham allowed - surely it too is doubling back?

Perhaps there's another reason. Graz - perhaps the folks who run the trtains and put the fare manuals together are trying to price people away from the TransWilts?

This isn't the only case like this - remember that there are two different fares from Swindon to Salisbury - the cheap one which is via Bath (thus excluding trains via Melksham) and the "any route" ticket.  If you travel on the 18:01 tonight from Swindon and change at Bath, it will cost you 18 pounds single. If you get the DIRECT train via Melksham at 18.45, it will cost you 30 pounds.

[BandHcommuter]

Perhaps there's another reason. Graz - perhaps the folks who run the trtains and put the fare manuals together are trying to price people away from the TransWilts?

This isn't the only case like this - remember that there are two different fares from Swindon to Salisbury - the cheap one which is via Bath (thus excluding trains via Melksham) and the "any route" ticket.  If you travel on the 18:01 tonight from Swindon and change at Bath, it will cost you 18 pounds single. If you get the DIRECT train via Melksham at 18.45, it will cost you 30 pounds.

I have previous experience of trying to get to the bottom of seemingly strange fares situations, and I honestly believe that this is cock-up rather than conspiracy. It is highly likely that the ticket routing for that journey pre-dated the re-introduction of the Melksham service in 1985, and no-one got round to changing "route Bath Spa" to "route Westbury" or similar. A letter to the pricing manager at FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in Swindon might well get it sorted in a future fares round.

In the mean time, buy a single Swindon to Warminster (route any permitted), and another Warminster to Salisbury. Total price ^15.70.

[TerminalJunkie]

This isn't the only case like this - remember that there are two different fares from Swindon to Salisbury - the cheap one which is via Bath (thus excluding trains via Melksham) and the "any route" ticket.  If you travel on the 18:01 tonight from Swindon and change at Bath, it will cost you 18 pounds single. If you get the DIRECT train via Melksham at 18.45, it will cost you 30 pounds.

Condition 13 of the Conditions of Carriage may help (or not!):

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
   (i) a through train;
   (ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
   (iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide (details as to how you can obtain this information will be available when you buy your ticket).
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the ^permitted routes^
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
   (i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
   (ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.
(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.
(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a ^through train^ is one which may be used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains.

<Barrack_Room_Lawyer_Mode=ON>

Paragraph (a)(i) clearly states that your ticket is valid on a through train. Paragraph (e) states that if you make a journey by a route other than that shown in (a) or (b) you will be liable to an excess fare, but the bit about being restricted to routes passing through a particular location is in (d), not (a) or (b).

<Barrack_Room_Lawyer_Mode=OFF>

There's more routing silliness here: http://www.on-the-train.demon.co.uk/RossRail/routeqn1.html

[Graz]

What's even worse is that is an OPEN SINGLE. I thought 'open' tickets allowed you to take your journey on any permitted route! And of course, a direct, shorter service would be permitted. BandHcommuter and TerminalJunkie are right, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) need to know about this as people may be being overcharged...

And I do realise that going via Chippenham / Melksham is longer, but Graham's evidence suggests that if it is possible to go back on yourself a little if you want to get from Chippenham to Warminster, there's no real reason why you can't do the same to get to / from Bath. I now have to get a lift into work, so what would have been extra revenue for FGW won't happen- and I'm sure many others have been in the same situation.

I can think of nothing but good points for using the TransWilts route (providing people were informed): Relief for the congested Portsmouth-Cardiff services and local trains, better distribution of passengers, more passengers going on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) from Chippenham to Bath and Bristol, and not local trains, more journey oppertunities to beyond Westbury like mine, growth and promotion of the line, and an emergency route from the south to Bath/Bristol. As long as no-one goes further than Chippenham, which isn't at all likely, why say no?

[swlines]

The reason for the easement via Bath on routes that would normally be via Melksham is due to the service that Melksham has (ie, negligible).

[Mookiemoo]

I have to get to work early tomorrow - 8am, to be exact. I checked Traveline and it gave me the option of changing at Chippenham at 6.24 onto the 6.34 TransWilts Southampton service, arriving Warminster at 7.13.  This gives me time to get the early bus out to the office from there without hanging around too long, and it would have been great as there are no trains arriving at Warminster between 6.43 (way too early) and 8.08 (too late).

Alas, when I checked the ticket options, the system would not let me get a return ticket using that route. The only option would be to get 2 singles, one of which using that route (^11.10 + ^4.95 Y-P back via Bradford-o-A = ^16.05!!) compared to ^8.60 for a return using the Bradford route. That's almost double the price!

I don't think going via Chippenham/Melksham should warrant such a price increase. Looking at a map, going on that route isn't much further out the way at all. I can get from Bath to Cheltenham via Newport for the same price as via Yate, so why is that not the case for this route? I feel FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) should make this route another valid alternative, especially if we're hopefully expecting more services. Imagine if trains between Westbury and Bath were extremely busy or cancelled and people were told they couldn't take such a sensible alternative because of a nonsensical rule like this. In short- make the TransWilts a valid alternative to get to Bath and Bristol!

Surely the problem is that a fare between A and B should be valid.

Look at my route....


WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)

Via evesham - very cheap compared to other routes - but its cheap because its subserdised as  I understand it therefore time of arrival at destination is random (1032 per month first class)

Via cheltenham - costs more than via evesham because not subserdised  but takes a lot longer as scheduled than the evesham route and involves hanging around at cheltenham (1300ish per month first class)

ludlow/hereford via newport - as a for chelteham but more so (1600 per month first class)

Now no one for whom WOS is convenient would go via cheltenham or newport if they have a choice (I go newport at weekends to avoid turbos)

Surely - a price from WOS to PAD should be that - if you decide to take 5 hours in stead of 2-5 hours depending on delays that is not something to pay more for when it inconvenieneces you?  You are going from A to B regardless.

[grahame]

Surely - a price from WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) should be that - if you decide to take 5 hours in stead of 2-5 hours depending on delays that is not something to pay more for when it inconvenieneces you?  You are going from A to B regardless.

Agreed. I think that what they're trying to prevent is breaks of journey.  In other words - trying to get as much dosh as they can for passengers who are needing to travel from Worcester to Newport for a meeting there, then on to London for another meeting.

And I would love to be able to buy a Melksham to Chippenham return ticket, travel out via Westbury, Reading (need to break journey - can't spend too long on a train) and Swindon and back direct 

[smokey]

If it's a though service The ticket is valid.

A London Stns-Manchester Piccadilly was valid on the old Wales and West Service From,
London Waterloo-Salisbury-Bath-Hereford-Craven Arms-Shrewsbury-Crewe-Manchester P.

However I bet that was Tricky if the train was canned on Route.