West Ham has moved the Goal Posts

[whole diary]

[thetrout]

Covering old ground I know... But for anyone who is interested in another Public Inconvenience vs. Ticket Validity Rant... Here we go

Subject to my rants regarding the situation at Stratford and West Ham regarding toilets... I past through West Ham a couple of nights ago and saw this wonderful sign, Which I personally think is wrong... Or at least rather economical with the truth.



As I have mentioned before. There is a Public Toilet right on the entrance to West Ham Station which will relieve you of 50p to use (might be 20p... I can't remember)

So have TfL^» (Transport for London - about) moved the goal posts and decided this toilet is now off the station premises? Even so, with regards to the countless Break-of-Journey problems I have had at this station over this sodding thing. I still think that you can Break the Journey perfectly legitimately on Cross London tickets for stations on the c2c line. But if used as an argument for GreaterAnglia services from Stratford, you might have a problem.

Now assuming I had arrived at West Ham by means of the Jubilee Line. I could exit the station to spend a penny and then find myself unable to get back in. Now London Underground staff may tell me I have to buy another ticket because I have "broken the journey"

Well that is actually incorrect (or at least, very economical with the truth) Yes I may have invalidated my X-London journey. But I don't need to continue on a TfL Service at West Ham for say Southend Central or Southend East. Because c2c Rail Services (which are National Rail, not TfL) call at West Ham. So I guess I would be within my rights to tell any member of staff that I have broken the journey, but no longer require the services of TfL and that I want a c2c Service, thus making their point completely irrelevant. I guess though that a JW staff member may insist I'm wrong or insist on escorting me onboard a c2c service.

Perhaps TfL have decided that because people need the toilet that they can make more money out of them...!

Time before last I was faced with this problem I was with the Ladyfriend Trout, who had a Travelcard. We went to the wide gate and she put her ticket through and I just walked alongside her. TfL none the wiser........

[TonyK]

I can see two urinals in that picture. One bears the word "Assistance", the other is called "Lift". The law of unintended consequences will bite you in the ass every time.

[JayMac]

There's a third. With some newspapers that can usefully absorb any micturition.

With said newspapers being published by the company that is also responsible for the Daily Mail. So use as a urinal is perfectly apposite in my opinion.

[eightf48544]

As far as the provison of public toilets are concerned we seem to be going backwards in tehis country.

Our Victorian Ancestors who the Tory party admire so much considered it their civic duty to provide manned public conviniences in every town, they even competed for the grandest designs.

Now with at least 20 million more people in the country Public loos are closing faster than Beeching shut the railways. Hence the use of unsuitable places because people still have to have to urinate and deficate our advances in medcine have not yet  eliminanted those functions.

It's a case of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing. It's also under valuing the Common Wealth of the nation.

[Network SouthEast]

Of course, in the Victorian era there was very little other choice.

It was rare for houses to have toilets, and even those that did were usually outside. They never had service stations or shopping centres providing toilets, like we do today. But local councils do have to provide more services to taxpayers today, which they did not have to worry about 120 years ago. Maybe if our rates went up to pay for better public conveniences we would get them, but how many voters really want to pay for that?

[trainer]

None of us want to pay anything more than we want to, but tt has raised an important issue.  I became most aware of the issues round accessibility to toilets when an older relative began to need to use them much more frequently on journeys.  There are many occasions when temporary illness renders the need for more frequenting of public plumbing as well as for those who through age and chronic conditions have to plan journeys in a way most of us don't think about.  I know tt's original post is about ticket validity, but the basic (very basic) issue, which I think he agrees with, is important for many of us.

I think I may be being a bit heavy for a 'Lighter Side' contribution - apologies.

[Brucey]

There are many inter-available fares at West Ham (tickets which are interchangeable between National Rail and London Underground and vice versa).  I wonder how break of journey works if you are using a National Rail point-to-point ticket on a London Underground service?  Is break of journey still allowed?

[Electric train]

With a National Rail ticket that has LU cross London you cannot break your LU journey, exiting the station at West Ham is breaking your journey.

The Toilets are likely to be operated by the local authority and not LU

[inspector_blakey]

exiting the station at West Ham is breaking your journey.

Quite correct. However, I'm not familiar with the layout at West Ham: is the bog in question actually on station premises? My understanding is that you don't technically break your journey unless you physically leave station premises, and for these purposes the presence of a gateline or otherwise is immaterial. Reading springs to mind as a good example: most of the station retail/food outlets are outside the gateline and I think you are, strictly, entitled to use them if you're changing trains on a ticket that doesn't allow break of journey because you don't actually set foot outside the station, just outside the barrier.

[Electric train]

exiting the station at West Ham is breaking your journey.

Quite correct. However, I'm not familiar with the layout at West Ham: is the bog in question actually on station premises? My understanding is that you don't technically break your journey unless you physically leave station premises, and for these purposes the presence of a gateline or otherwise is immaterial. Reading springs to mind as a good example: most of the station retail/food outlets are outside the gateline and I think you are, strictly, entitled to use them if you're changing trains on a ticket that doesn't allow break of journey because you don't actually set foot outside the station, just outside the barrier.

I'm not sure where they are located, although I have used West Ham many times I've never required to partake of a lavatorial experience at West Ham

[Chris from Nailsea]

There is no reference to any toilet facilities within the station premises at West Ham, according to National Rail Enquiries.

[thetrout]

Well I had responded to this post. But by the looks of things the when I pressed post it didn't. I was on a WiFi Hot Spot which gets internet through a Cellular Data Connection though (WiFi on a Coach). So I'm not too surprised.

I won't type out who post again for fear of boring people to death... But I'll cover the points raised regarding the B-o-J Issue.

Anyway I have discovered why this sign has appeared, but in a way it does confirm that said toilet was classed as on railway or TfL^» (Transport for London - about) property.

The toilet is the Black Pod thing behind the first tree on the left in the row in this shot: http://goo.gl/maps/YqFkr

However the new Google StreetView Imagery shows this... Spot the problem behind the same tree (albeit without the leaves ) http://goo.gl/maps/eRJTZ

Maybe Doctor Who is real and the toilet was a tardis the whole time............

[thetrout]

I agree with I_B. Break of Journey AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) is only if you leave the railway premises. So lets assume a Car Park is Railway Premises, you could get in your car and drive it around the car park and park again. As you haven't left railway premises, AIUI you have not broken the journey.

I think alot of the time the B-o-J rules are open to interpretation and discretion. Which then comes down to who you speak to. One member of staff might be ok with you popping across the road to a Convenience Store to buy some pain killers which IS a BoJ^▸ (Break of Journey). Whereas the staff member covering someones lunch break for an hour might not be ok with it.

Indeed I have proved this when using Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services). A member of Gateline Staff let me out at Earls Court without any hesitation at all because the toilet at the station was broken. He suggested McDonald's across the road, which he actually said to me in future to do anyway as the toilets there are free and considrably cleaner Once I wandered back 5 minutes later he waved me through as nothing had happened.

As much as I would say that was excellent common sense. I guess it comes down to if I hadn't come back, TfL^» (Transport for London - about) would've whacked a full fare charge onto my Oyster for a ^1.40 journey.

Whereas X-London National Rail Tickets are much more difficult to police as it could be argued I am not going to the toilet at all... And I have been accused of that one too. Sadly for this type of problem, I am not of the Female Gender, so the "I'm Pregnant" card is not one I have in my hand either.

But as Electric Train and Brucey have said. X-London journeys at West Ham and even Stratford can be a minefield of their own when faced with a BoJ conflict with staff. Because whilst a BoJ may be valid on the National Rail ticket. A member of TfL staff can reasonably argue that I cannot proceed to make a journey on London Underground Services if I Break the journey at West Ham or Stratford. But there is a fair bigger issue here with ticket validity... Because I am hardly likely to jump on the Central Line at Stratford to go to say Epping when I have a ticket in my hand for Souffend Airport