Great Western Coffee Shop

STAG are calling for better Bath - Severn Tunnel Junction connections , and want to hear from from people who will be affected by the December 2007 timetable changes (link below.)
http://www.saveseverntunnel.co.uk/issues.htm

They moan if they don't have 1, so they get that 1 they want, then moan because of the other!

Never happy are they  ::)

It only takes a simple change at Bristol/Filton

and they're never going to be happy.

Actually , its probably me who should have been a bit clearer. STAG are calling for better Bath - Severn Tunnel Junction evening connections. Quote from STAG :

From December 9th, the train timetable is changing.

^ From this date the last direct train from Bath to Severn Tunnel Junction is at 17.35 on a weekday*.

^ After that, to get home you may have to go via Newport or wait an hour at Bristol!

Help persuade First Great Western to provide a better connection!

If you regularly catch a train from Bath to Severn Tunnel, we need to hear from you. Simply let us know which train you usually catch to and from Bath Spa.

please email:- info@saveseverntunnel.co.uk BEFORE Friday 16th NOVEMBER.

We need to gauge passenger levels so we can lobby FGW on your behalf.

* After 17.35 the only way Bath passengers will be able to catch the connection at Temple Meads will be to sprint across the station in the four minute gap between services - if the trains are on time, of course!

Rubbish, the late night PMH-CDF stop there!

Jim is correct. Perhaps STAG would be better off pointing out that there is no direct Bath - Severn Tunnel Junction service between 1735 - 2135 , a gap of 4 hours.

 ;D

And also, every journey option in OJP gave me a total time of under an hour! So, perhaps it's easier to find the truthfull parts of the article!

 ::) honestly.....

Yes , it would appear that the STAG article was somewhat incorrect , but have you or Liam never made a mistake before (dont answer that  ;D)

On the other hand , very few FGW campaign groups can claim to have acheived their original objectives in as short a space of time as Severn Tunnel Action Group have.

I have been a critic of the forum member who started this thread in the past. Resident in the Portsmouth area he seems to proclaim himself as a peoples champion and is getting involved in issues away from his home ground. Pilning, Severn Beach Line, Ashchurch just to name a few.

As I have stated before as a former member of a LA we would look at petitions presented to us and the first question would be who instigated this petition.  ....

[snip]

I am sure that Grahame and the Melksham Station Development Group would love to have a regular two hourly connecting service from Swindon / Westbury let alone a service provision right up to nearly 2300 hours as STJ will enjoy from BRI as stated in the December TT changes.

[snip]

You may find errors in the undermentioned as I have prepared this quite quickly as I now pour the last glass of red wine, to fini the bottle, into my glass and shut up, on this forum anyway, and start packing for my forthcoming weekend in Ostend on our groups annual Booze and Baccy run. Giong by coach by the way, rail fares only over twice what we are paying inclusive of three nights in hotel.

[snip]

This thread has been amended to remove what I consider to be a personal attack on one of our members by another.  Disagreement and discussion is fine, but personal attack is NOT.   As the poster has chosen to post and then leave for a few days, I have snipped his writings (I have kept a copy) and will take the matter up on his return.

I'm going to let the person you are asking / challenging answer your main points.  However, I'm going to pick up on a point that get missed sometimes ...

People travel to get from one point to another, often via many other points on the way.   That is different to almost any other issue, which will tend to be geostationary and therefore work better, naturally, with systems such as parish councils, counties, etc each of which has a physical area.

I live in Melksham. I put the case here for an improved service.  But NOT ONE of the journeys that would be made on that improved service is within Melksham and I am bound to be crossing over borders / making suggestions that effect Chippenham and Trowbridge and Swindon and Salisbury.  Indeed - recent history shows that only a fifth of the journeys made on the TransWilts line involve journeys that were ticketed to start or end at Melksham, and of those we can guess that a half were for people coming in to the town, and just a half for residents.

Now ... I was talking with the Mayor of Melksham and two former mayors on Sunday - representing all three political parties ... and they are very much giving the local support.  And I have also made sure to keep other from wider on board too - you'll find a picture of me with similar dignatories from Swindon and Salisbury and Chippenham, for example, set up for the campaign. But at times I feel that I am representing different but parallel interests to my own and whilst it's not necessarily comfortable, it's one of those things that can't be avoided with the cross-area transport issues.   How far afield do I go?  I have a supporter of the campaign in Bolton and one in Edinburgh and one in Neath and should they be "discounted"?  No - they should not; they have travelled to / from the TransWilts by train and would / will again if we can persuade FGW or SWT to actually run a serive that's appropriate for people's needs, including theirs.

I keep a watching eye and a listening ear open to what is said on the TransWilts issues and try to reflect the view or everyone who travels the line or who wants to - whether they live on the South Coast, in Oxford, Cambridge, Axminster, Greenwich (just this week and next week's visitors that I can think of straight away!).   If the local councillors around here were to say "we don't welcome her support because she comes from a different district" to one of our supporters and users / wannabe users, then I would be very sad at the narrowmindedness of the local support.

I have noted that there is local support for the issues that come up on these forums; sometimes that support is manifestly here and online - at other times it is manifested through more traditional media.   I have also noted a tendency to competitiveness - looking for service xxxx rather than yyyy.  With limited resources, there are difficult tradeoffs at times but I see no reason that all aspirartions shouldn't be put forward, aired, tested.    For sure, when I see a service incread from 12 to 15 trains a day, I think "if only we had the extra three" ....

Have a great weekend - see you here next week!

martyjon misses the point , so I will clarify :

My post was not me campaigning , it was me fulfilling my role as a Global Moderator in reporting the STAG article.

I fully accept that the STAG article was wrong , and pointed this out. The STAG folks are friends of mine , so there was also an element of me defending them in my posts. They also welcome my involvement with their campaign , as does every other campaign group that I am involved with. Therefore I dont see how I can be classed as an opportunist.

Given that I didnt write the STAG article , I fail to see how I deserved the latest batch of vitriol thrown at me by this particular member. I am somewhat upset by this intervention , as I have recently done my best to build bridges with martyjon , as you will see from my posts in previous topics.

Thanks for that input, Lee.   

It's very clear to me (at least) looking back at the thread that you're reporting rather than expressing your own view, so I feel that Martyjon was being less that realistic in  attacking the messenger rather than originator.   It would be exactly the same as one of us rounding on our local train crew because they don't run enough trains.

I note that Martyjon was just finishing a bottle of wine as he posted, and will be now have left on a booze run to Oostende - a great pity, as I would like to take up the nature of his post, which verges on a personal attack (outside our acceptable user policy) , and invite him to amend it.

As it is, I WILL be taking this up further (but not in public at this point) but do want to record my continuing faith is Lee and all the research and other work he does - a very valuable member of the team.

Thankyou , grahame.

I should also point out that Severn Tunnel Action Group welcomed the pre - martyjon forum inputs , and have amended their article to remove the inaccuracies (link below.)
http://www.saveseverntunnel.co.uk/issues.htm

martyjon mentioned the Ashchurch petition. It now has over 200 signatures , the vast majority of which (I am told) could be described as local (link below.)
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ashchurchtrains/

My view on service frequency is that if you are going to bother keeping a station open it deserves a reasonably frequent service.  If a station doesn't have enough passengers to justify a frequent service then unless there are exceptional circumstances (such a poor road connections) the public would be better served with a more frequent bus service.  Trains ought to be used to do what they are best at, moving a large number of passengers from a to b, and not be used to achive what other modes could do better.  Otherwise you still have a fixed cost of maintaining the station but that fixed cost is spread over fewer passengers.  Running a train but not stopping it at stations is even more poor value because you have the fixed costs of hiring and manning the train but  you neglect to pick up potential passengers who could share that cost.  If you could pick up just a few dozen extra passengers a day you would have an economic case for stopping the service (so long as existing passengers are not detered by the extra stops)

A station like Severn Tunnel Junction is never going to be as busy as paddington or Bristol Parkway but it has a large car park which means it is fairly well used for commuting into both Newport/Cardiff and Bath/Bristol.  it therefore deserves a more frequent service than it currently has. 

I know that the downside of stopping at every station is that journey times are increased but we have some rumours that class 170s might be deployed on the Cardiff-Portsmouth route.  In another topic on this forum I had suggested that the faster 170s be used to be reduce journey times only to get some information on line speeds from someone who knows more about the railway than me which suggests that because 75mph is the maximum speed in many areas faster speeds are unlikely to be possible without infracstructure upgrades.   But I bet that if you replaced all the trains on the route with 170s, you could stop all of the trains at STJ and Keynsham and use the superiour acceleration of the 170s to match today's journey times. 

Whilst I am dreaming, it would be nice to see STJ's carpark extended and it marketed as a park and ride station. 

A comprehensive Severn Tunnel Action Group update can be found in the link below.
http://www.saveseverntunnel.co.uk/campaign%20updates.htm

The car park is full most weekdays actually!

Leaving aside the moral question of whether it is right to withdraw services from such stations , here are two examples of why I disagree with the above quote :

1) The longer journey times that tend to result from bustitution (example below.)

(http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/tbt.jpg)

grahame's Wiltshire Travel Game is an interesting variation on this theme (link below.)
http://www.wellho.net/demo/game01.php

2) Extensive research shows that people dont see the bus as being as attractive a public transport option as the train. Therefore , if rail is not available as an option , a significant number of passengers are likely to use their cars rather than the bus. This would inevitably lead to a rise in congestion levels in areas such as Greater Bristol.

This is especially relevant in todays world , but Beeching also remarked on similar issues in 1963 :

"It might pay to run railways at a loss in order to prevent the incidence of an even greater cost which would arise elsewhere if the railways were closed. Such other costs may be deemed to arise from congestion, provision of parking space, injury and death, additional road building, or a number of other causes."

That said , I think that the broad thrust of Tim's post is both interesting and valid. We looked at similiar issues during the drafting stage of our Gateway To The Future proposals. Examples can be found in the links below.
http://www.shinewithstyle.co.uk/literature/Suggested%20Portsmouth%20-%20Rhoose%20timetable.pdf

http://www.shinewithstyle.co.uk/literature/Suggested%20Weymouth%20-%20Severn%20Beach%20timetable.pdf

http://www.shinewithstyle.co.uk/literature/Draft%20Greater%20Bristol%20Metro%20Proposals.pdf

http://www.shinewithstyle.co.uk/literature/melksham%20new%202007%20timetable%20proposals.pdf

http://www.shinewithstyle.co.uk/literature/Draft%20Bicester%20-%20Bristol%20timetable.pdf

As is the case with all such initial optioneering , some of the train paths used in the above were found not to be feasible. We have aimed to correct this in the final version of Gateway To The Future (link below.)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=357.msg1034#msg1034

However , development of Gateway To The Future is an ongoing process , and we welcome all constructive comments and suggestions.

There is a further STAG press release for me to report (he said , bracing himself......) :

"- Severn Tunnel Junction rail passengers hit by cuts to Bath Spa

- Reduced service threatens Christmas shoppers

- Commuters forced onto the roads

Christmas shoppers and regular commuters will have to find alternative routes to Bath when First Great Western introduces their revised train timetable on 9th December.

The train company has decided to withdraw through train service between Severn Tunnel Junction and Bath. This decision comes despite a huge rise year on year in journeys and ticket sales between STJ and Bath Spa.

Talking about the cuts, David Flint, Chairman of Severn Tunnel Action Group (STAG) said "Bath is the second most popular destination for eastbound travellers from Severn Tunnel Junction. It is used by commuters, students and throughout the day by shoppers. In the past twelve months we have seen ticket sales increase by 39% on this route. These cuts just don^t make sense.^

We spoke to Lucy-Jane Cypher, one of an estimated 26 regular commuters from Severn Tunnel Junction to Bath. Lucy-Jane, Media Officer for STAG, fears she will have to abandon the train and buy a car when the new timetable is introduced on the 9 December.

Talking about the change she said "I finish work in Bath around 6 o^clock and the best train back to Severn Tunnel is currently the 1803 which gets me back to Severn Tunnel Junction at 18.50.

^From 9 December I will be forced to change trains at Bristol Temple Meads as the revised 18.06 from Bath no longer stops at Severn Tunnel Junction. From that date I will have to wait in Bristol for the Arriva Cross-Country train which will get me back to Severn Tunnel Junction at 19.47 This is, in effect, a doubling in the time it will take me to get home, from just 47 minutes to one hour forty one minutes travelling time.

^The alternative is for me to plead with my management to let me go in time to catch the 18.00. The problem with this train is that there is only going to be a four minute connection at Bristol Temple Meads. So, if the incoming train is late, which, judging by current performance will be pretty often, I'm going to be running between platforms at Bristol. If I fail to make the connection, I^ll get home two hours after I finish work!^

Lucy-Jane continued ^It's a shame as there's already enough traffic on the roads between South Wales and Bath. If I'm going to get home in time to enjoy my evenings, I'm going to have to abandon the train.^

Commuters will suffer from the train cuts. Although there are some direct services at peak times, there will be no through commuter trains from Bath Spa to Severn Tunnel Junction between 17.35 and 21.35. The trains that will operate will be hourly services requiring a change at Bristol, with a minimum wait of about half an hour for the connection.

Last year the Severn Tunnel Action Group successfully campaigned to have two morning and evening commuter trains to Bristol re-instated. From

9 December these trains, being the 06.55 and 07.55 to Bath, and the 16.35 and 17.35 from Bath, will be the only through trains.

Last December 16 trains a day, one third of the services between Severn Tunnel Junction and Bristol and Bath, were withdrawn following the decision to axe the Cardiff to Portsmouth trains from stopping at Severn Tunnel Junction.

In STAGs response to the proposed changes they say they specifically asked First Great Western to ensure the service leaving Bath on the hour would continue to connect with the onward services to Wales. This has not happened so not only are the through trains lost but there are no connections at Bristol.

But STAG tell us that there is also some good news for rail travellers. In Arriva Trains Wales^ new timetable, and starting in December, services through Severn Tunnel Junction, Chepstow and Lydney will now go all the way to Cheltenham Spa. Here, they say, there will be excellent connections for onward travel to Birmingham and the north. Cheltenham Spa will also provide shoppers with a good alternative to Bath.

In addition, they say, travel between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cheltenham will be quicker than travelling to Bath Spa. The STAG representative thought it will be interesting to see if Cheltenham takes over from Bath as the most popular shopping destination."

For more info or to give STAG your comments on the above press release , contact them at info@saveseverntunnel.co.uk

Or they could always leave later and have a shorter journey time!

Which would still mean hanging around at her place of work and at Temple Meads? Remember , she currently has a direct service that gets her back almost an hour earlier.

Or they could get a train and get a connection there, and they'd have a 15 min wait tops, as the connections they have are farely awesome via newport...

clearly thats far to obvious a choice for STAG to take!

1) She finishes work at 1800. According to National Rail Enquiries her first option is 1900 (an hour after she finishes work) to Bristol Temple Meads , a 10 minute wait at Bristol Temple Meads (still "hanging around" compared to no change at all currently) then 1925 to Severn Tunnel Junction arriving at 1947 (57 minutes later than currently.)

2) I gave forum members the STAG e-mail address for a reason.......

Who said we were blaming you for the fraud article (yet again) written by a bunch of muppets who must catch 1 train at the precise time they finish work

Muppets who managed to get their peak hour service restored to half hourly much quicker than most other campaigns have achieved any results - and from a standing start too. Let's try and keep positive relations with groups that broadly want to achieve the same aims as we do.

The problem here is partly that within the space of a year FGW have recast the connections at BTM twice on the east-west and north -south axes. So all those that had a good through service a year ago found their journey disrupted and a goodly proportion will have made other arrangments. Just as new journey patterns are bedding in, it's all change again, so you end up with the worst of all worlds.

And Muppets who can^t do the sensible thing and take a 10 minute train the opposite direction to get a connection...

Personally I think they need to broaden there horizon a lot and stop claiming the changing trains is an "issues".

if i had the kind of service at my local station (when im at home and not at uni) that they had, i'd be incredibly happy with what i've got.

Hey folks - you're getting a bit personal suggesting that people are muppets - it could be taken as an insult, even if you use it as a term of endearment within your own family. (There is something a bit loveable aboout Kermit after all!). PLEASE have a look at
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1067.0

I'm not sure whether the regular user would think of changing at Bath ...
a) is this what the timetable site suggests?
b) is that journey available at the same fare?

Let's look logically at this - the regular commuter needs to have a train that arrives (reliably) in time for work and leaves after work has been fully finished, and desires to have the train leave as late as possible from his/her home station in the morning and get back there as early as possible in the evening.  Changes of train are undesirable as they distrurb the journey, and under the current regime are liable to twice the cancellation risk and all too prone to delays of the first train missing the connection, or two possibilities of denied boarding due to overcrowding rather than just one.

Moving to a different line - a service where everyone is agreed that the current service is totally inappropriate ... Swindon to Melksham.   Let me compare 3 journeys as offered by the FGW web site / phone enquiry team .... for a departure at 17:45 or just thereafter.


5th December.   Leave 18:42, into Melksham 19:08.
Train is really an hour too late, but journey time sensible

12th December. Leave 18:31, change at Bath and Trowbridge, Melksham at 19:47
Too long a journey time, train leaves too late, too much chance of missing connection, higher fare. Yuk. [Note - the enquiry team misses a direct train at 18:45 which is not on their system!]

27th December. Leave 18:35, change at Chippenham, Melksham at 19:54
Too long a journey, too long a wait at Chippenham (55 minutes), train leaves too late.


Jim - time spent by a car driver sitting in a jam is priced by the DfT at 44p per minutes ... bus and train passengers are given less value. But that's the sort of "price" you're looking at for delays back to home stations, or the needs for earlier starts.

If I am honest, they should of kept the timetable with 1 TP2H from Tauton and 1 TP2H from Westbury, as it was back with Wessex IIRC

They may well want to, but they don't get my vote looking at things in a impractical way.

Yes, I agree they should get something to happen, I think they should get the 18.38 Bath-Cardiff stopping at the Tunnel, that way you've got both sides happier, BUT it does get on my wick when they insist on catching the train with the longest connection time at Bristol and claim it is "The Connection"


See Grahme, you campaign gets my support, because your not trying to seek something un-reasonable, and your being as flexiable as posiable about your journey, realisitcally.

Not trying to suggest that STAG's aims are to the contary, but I think they could become slightly more flexiable.

However, one thing thaat STAG have NOT commented on to my knowledge, is the hourly service on Sundays, which I belive is a huge improvment to the previous FGW offering

Between 1735 (when peak direct Bath - STJ services end) and 2135 (when evening direct Bath - STJ services resume) I could only find the following from December 2007.

Via Newport :

1835 Bath Spa - Newport arrive 1925 - 45 minute wait then change into 2010 Newport - Severn Tunnel Junction arrive 2021. Overall journey time 1 hour 46 minutes.

1937 Bath Spa - Newport arrive 2023 - 51 minute wait then change into 2114 Newport - Severn Tunnel Junction arrive 2124. Overall journey time 1 hour 47 minutes.

2035 Bath Spa - Newport arrive 2128 - 49 minute wait then change into 2217 Newport - Severn Tunnel Junction arrive 2233. Overall journey time 1 hour 58 minutes.

Compared with a direct Bath - STJ journey time of around 40 minutes , there would appear to be no contest.

Lets try via Bristol Temple Meads (mininum connection time 10 minutes) :

1900 Bath Spa - Bristol Temple Meads arrive 1915 - 10 minute wait then change into 1925 Bristol Temple Meads - Severn Tunnel Junction arrive 1947. Overall journey time 47 minutes.

1937 Bath Spa - Bristol Temple Meads arrive 1949 - 30 minute wait then change into 2019 Bristol Temple Meads - Severn Tunnel Junction arrive 2046. Overall journey time 1 hour 9 minutes.

2035 Bath Spa - Bristol Temple Meads arrive 2050 - 29 minute wait then change into 2119 Bristol Temple Meads - Severn Tunnel Junction arrive 2148. Overall journey time 1 hour 13 minutes.

Better , but still not great. You could change at Filton Abbey Wood if you wished on the latter 2 journeys , but the wait would be about the same , with nowhere to get a cuppa......

Whatever your feelings towards STAG (and I detect a little animosity among some members) dont forget that Bath - STJ direct services are being reduced from 18 westbound and 17 eastbound to 5 westbound and 6 eastbound on Monday - Fridays. They feel that such a large cut gives them a legitimate grievance.

That's enough from me anyway. I refer you to the quote below (Jim , I know nobody's blaming me for posting the press release) :



They will be more than happy to answer your queries.

This topic is currently locked - it's getting a little heated, with much of the heat from the oxyacetelene torch being turned on the messenger.   As there are few of the people who are directly effected by the specific journey here, can I suggest this carries on via the STAG links provided.

I think what annoyed me about this was that STAG have been very active in publicising this forum for us (see their link page below.)
http://www.saveseverntunnel.co.uk/links.htm

I have noticed that we havent attracted as many "South Wales local journeys" members as one would expect. Whilst everyone on the forum has a right to disagree with what's written , I do wonder what the effect on a STAG member clicking on the link and finding the group he / she supports being described as "muppets" is.

That said , I probably take things a little too personally when my friends are criticised , and I apologise for that.