Great Western Coffee Shop

Ok, I don^t think it^s right to go into details on here as this is pretty serious and not the place to do it. There was a very serious safety breach on the service I was on last night caused by the driver. I reported this to a member of staff at Reading. Now for peace of Mind I^d like to follow this up in an e-mail. Is it best just to use the form on the FGW website?

Simon.

If it was serious, I'd suggest you phone FGW Customer Services rather than email them.  That way you'll get an immediate response and can act on it if you're not satisfied.

Serious Breach of Safety caused by......should only be used if you are in full possession of all the facts...... any safety of the line incidents would  have been reported to and picked up by the controlling signaller and dealt with through laid down procedures and thus i think the moderators should consider locking this thread

Considered ... and thanks for the suggestion to do so. 

I'm going to suggest that - at this stage it would be much wiser to say that it appeared that there was a very serious safety breach, and it appeared to be caused by the driver.  We've only got to look back a very few days to see a dreadful road accident where some assumptions of cause / responsibility were made before all the facts were known.   So - please - don't further analyse and lay blame in this thread.  Hornbeam may wish to edit his post?

However, I am not locking the thread.  When anyone sees something that they have reasonably believe to be a serious safety issue, they should know how and where to report it, and to check up that the report hasn't gone up a blind alley - and I'm not going to do anything to this thread that would stop it being used to inform people on how to report and check on follow ups.  And I'm not sure that it was a safety of the line issue, so I'm not sure that it would have been picked up - in a perfect system, yes, but then in a perfect system there aren't things that look like safety breaches ...

I'm trying to take as balanced a view on this as possible - although I did initially consider locking the thread, on reflection I'm inclined to leave it open but keep a close watch on it. Why...? Several reasons:

1. The OP has not posted any information that could identify the service involved, not specified what the problem was, for which I thank him.

2. Assuming that this was a breach worthy of investigation, no doubt an investigation will occur and the facts be established if necessary. It's entirely possible that this is already in hand, but I would have no issue with a member of the public wanting to follow up on a verbal report to ensure that it was being acted upon.

3. You don't necessarily need to be a member of railway staff to identify a serious safety breach; admittedly to the uninitiated some pretty minor issues may look bad/serious when they're not. However, it is equally possible that there was a relatively serious irregularity in which case there's nothing wrong with asking for the appropriate channels through which to report it in a forum such as this. I would encourage any passenger who feels they have a genuine safety concern to raise it through the appropriate channels, rather than being scared into silence because "they may not know what they are talking about".

4. Put yourself in the following situation: you're not an aero engineer, but you're sitting on an aircraft and notice chunks of an engine falling off in flight. Do you sit tight and say nothing because "the full facts have not been established" or do you ask the cabin crew to pass a message to the captain that there are pieces dropping off the engine? Not sure about anyone else but my inclination would be to take the latter course.

So, I'm leaving the thread open for now; it's possible my fellow moderators may disagree with my judgement in which case this may change. However, I am going to ask anyone following up on these posts to tread very carefully and bear in mind that we're closely monitoring what is posted here.

Ooops, sorry, post crossed with grahame's.

Looks like we're in agreement  ;D

[Note to all - we usually are!]

Thanks Mods; I agree it is a perfectly reasonable question, and one that deserves to be answered before someone is put in the heart-rending position of watching something nasty happen because they lacked the means of communicating a danger message in time.

Do emergence "999" call centres have any capability of connecting you with the appropriate means of stopping a train in an emergency?

The appropriate means of stopping a train in an emergency is to use the Pass Comm (emergency alarm), on most trains this will apply the brakes immediately though on some more modern trains the driver can overrule temporarily if they feel the train is in an inappropriate place, such as a tunnel, viaduct or cutting. This is why passengers are inundated with announcements to look over safety instructions (though I am of the impression that many travel with a one size fits all mentality assuming procedures are the same on every type of rolling stock!).

That is difficult, if you make 999 call from a moving train you the caller may not even know where you are and the call will go to the local 999 operator however the Railway Signal, Electrical or Traffic Control Center can be tens and even hundreds of miles away.  On the internal Railway telephone network users its own emergency dial code which goes to the Railway exchange operator who has the details for direct contact with the blue light services for the area where the emergency is, also internally Railway staff can contact signalers, electrical control rooms to make emergency calls where immediate action can be taken to stop trains turn traction current off and co-ordinate the blue light services as these railway centres have details of access points and can call out mobile operations  and maintenance teams.

Generally should a member of the public become aware of a safety issue they should contact a member of staff, even contractors are briefed on railway safety reporting

Yes I'd agree with the above answers.
Although the initial post was related, it seems, to someone on a train, my enquiry about emergency calls was from the point of view of someone on the lineside (e.g. spotting a landslip, objects placed on line etc.). For bridge damage, it is rather more obvious as NR provide emergency number and location details on handy signs.

You could report the incident to the HSE (Health and Safety Executive)...?

But my advice would be only do so if you think FGW aren't taking your "complaint" seriously, or as grahame suggested "gone up a blind alley"

But HSE are not the Safety for Railways any more it is ORR isn't it?

Network Rail's website provides an emergency number, as well as BTPolice number.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/1346.aspx (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/1346.aspx)

Sorry if I^ve caused any issues posting that question.

In hindsight the passenger alarm would have been a good idea, but as we were so close to the destination and said issue couldn^t happen again before the destination ( and there was no way I^d be able to get to the alarm as the train was packed) I decided to report it at the station. I also called FGW, and I have to say how impressed I was with the person I called. There was no log made of when I reported the issue at the station, but that^s not to say it wasn^t dealt with. I still feel it^s best not to go into details, but I can assure you all I^m not using this forum as publicity or for scare mongering, I generally didn^t know how to best to report the issue.

Thank you,

Simon.

As a member of the public you can only report these things to a member of staff at the time or just after even as a Railway employee it can be the best way, you were quite correct to follow it up as you did, the incident should have been logged by the staff member at the very least that area will get a cascade brief to remind staff of the correct process

I'd say do not apologise as it raised a very important topic on what people can/should do if they suspect something is happening on the railway that can endager safety. It has proved to be a very useful topic and you have not given away details that could cause problems so if anything this was a very useful topic you started and I for one am greatful.

Simon - there's nothing to apologise for.  I for one am very happy that you set the scene and then asked what you should do.   The fact that it lead to an animated debate, and calls made in a way that otherwise may not have happened, confirmed you were exactly right to ask.

In fact .. there is probably scope for a sticky "What to do in an emergency" type thread to include
- Bridge Strikes
- Level crossing (?)malfunctions
- People, animal, shopping trolleys and sleepers on the line
- burning telepgraph polls
- Threatening behaviour on the train
- landslip and washout, tree across the line
- sparks and flames coming out of a train
- other incidents
It's probably fair to assume that - for the most part - these things will be picked up by rail staff and you'll just be repeating a report, but I'm sure that the rail authorities would far rather have two reports rather than none at all if the none at all resulted in a serious accident ...

There is a system (called CIRAS) for STAFF to report safety concerns if they feel that the normal company channels are not viable.  They do not accept reports from teh public though and say..

"Members of the public with a concern about operational safety should contact: Network Rail - 08457 114141 or, if the matter is urgent, the British Transport Police - 0800 405040."

However ... such signs are not necessarily kept up-to-date: see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=9028.msg92276#msg92276  ::)

I did call FGW again to ensure the details of my call had been logged, and was informed nothing had been logged on their system- after informing them twice! ive now contacted the ORR.

Well done, Simon. Good for you for not giving up in the face of corporate indifference.

Very disappointed to hear that neither the FGW staff on the day nor customer services took the complaint seriously and pursued it. In the circumstances you've done absolutely the right thing.