Great Western Coffee Shop

FGW is pilloried in it this week for a labyrynthine fare structure which not even the Managing Director understands. It seems that they arrested a passenger who had paid the legal fare. I think this really is unacceptable conduct by a rail franchisee.

We also have a UK railway that takes more subsidy than in BR's day and on certain lines probably including FGW delivers a worse service.

With the growth in passenger traffic since 1994, it has been pointed out that by now, if BR had been retained, it would have been generating a profit for the Treasury.

have you recently been penalty fared or been fired by fgw?

Or are you even that person you mention? :-)

Some franchises ARE generating a profit for the treasury

was that a sour grape i just picked out of this bunch?.......

Maybe, but IMHO the "Devil's advocate" questions are worth asking, and I thank "D" for that.   

The fare structure is indeed awfully complex.  I don't thinks it's actually necessary for the MD of the company to fully understand everything about everything in his company, and indeed if he know everything about everything in the fare book including the list of exceptions, I would be worried about how much time he had left to manage.  Rather more worrying is the lack of knowledge at times at the customer facing contact points - I recall a journey made that included a crosslondon leg included in the ticket but I was told it wasn't, another journey made where I got a 4 to 3 spit from staff as to whether my ticket was valid on a certain train, and if you look at this forum I have yet to find anyone who call tell me why the 18:06 from Paddington is offpeak to Bedwyn, but peak to Westbury.  There are occasions I've travelled on this service that the staff haven't been sure about its peak status either (but at least they have been pleasant and looked it up) and others I have heard reported on the same service who have been adamant in upholding what I believe to be incorrect, but in their hearts they have felt to be correct.

"D" also talks of a worse service since BR days.   I can't comment, having been brought up in BR days in the London 'burbs but now living in Melksham; the metrics are so different that a comparison would be unfair.   What I can do is to comment back to the previous franchise.   I run a business, bringing customers to our facilities in this town, and 7 or 8 years ago, 40% of our customers arrived in the town on the trains run by "Wessex Trains".  These days, following the timetable changes in 2006, the figure is around 5%.  Clearly, in terms of something effecting our own customers there's been some change.   And I put it down to the fact the timetable changes.  In Wessex days, you could arrive in Melksham at 06:56, 09:12, 14:49, 18:09 and 22:37 on a Monday to Friday with connections from London into each train.  The current timetable has an arrival at 06:40 (no connection from London - on this earlier timing it sets out from Swindon in front of, rather than just behind, the first express from London of the day) and one at 19:11.

We can (and indeed I have) just picked out examples from personal experience that match the posted information that "D" reports, but they are not unique to the FGW area, nor all at the behest of First - they have to work within a framework that's set across the whole land, and they (like other companies in the same business) have to work for their shareholders and follow the direction of government as laid down in the franchise, doing so in such a way that they can retain the franchise when it's re-let.

It would be a big co-incicence indeed if "D" - who posts here very occasionally over the years - was actually to be the person arrested for paying the legal fare, or had those other connections others have asked about.   I'm unclear myself as to the true cost of management of the current system, and how much it fails to make extra revenue where it might, but then spends money where it need not.  I'm also unclear as to how much of the effect of the current system causes ripples that depress usage and thus income - with payments going this way and that, the whole thing in any case seems to depend on how the accountants choose to look at it to me!

On the positive side ... there ARE opportunities.  We've gotten our fingers out a bit better in Wiltshire this franchise bit around, and now have a definition of an appropriate service with a business case (2.74 BCR), an operational case, a business survey, a public and leisure survey, and even proof that if a train's run and advertised it will be used.  Actually that last was rather over-subscribed and we had to pull back on the advertising and extra connectional services.  As it was, people were denied boarding on an already-lengthened train on at least 2 days out of the 8 of the trial.

Further to my earlier post in "Kennet." It is pretty clear that on the 18.06 PAD-FRO if you buy a through ticket from PAD/RDG to beyond BDW, then you need an Anytime ticket (or an Advance) at considerable expense. Hence these journeys are PEAK. This can be mitigated by a split at a suitable B+H station (THE is most economic) using tickets which have some flexibility, and therefore could be used on the later evening trains to WSB.

Totally agreed, WSW Frome (and well added to this thread).  Although we know that here, the points to be made in relation to it on this thread (and made clearer by your addition) are ... (a) Not all the staff know this, even those on the train and (b) there's an apparent absurdity in that the train is valid for offpeak tickets for people on it only on the busiest part of its route,  but if people want to travel on the busiest part of the route and then go on to the quieter bit beyond, they need to buy a peak ticket (or split!).  And this rather backs up D's suggestion of a "labyrynthine fare structure ..."

Following ticket validity problems I experienced earlier in the the year on both the 1706 and 1806 from Paddington to Westbury and beyond, I enquired about the peak/off peak nature of these services.

Here's the response I got from FGW Customer Services:

Perhaps I'm thick, but I don't find that particularly easy or logical to follow.  If you accept that a train can be on two routes at the same time, you would expect the higher price (pence per mile) to be on the route where the train's not crowded, not the other way round, wouldn't you?   Looking at it another way, shouldn't the price per mile be lower not higher on high speed routes?   At 50 m.p.h. / 60p per mile each seat can earn 30 pounds in an hour. But at 100 m.p.h, each seat only need cost 30p per mile to earn the same 30 pounds per hour.

And I'm puzzled by the the suggestion that the different routes are made clear in the Customer's Charter ... I just searched the .pdf for "Bedwyn" and couldn't find it at all.  My geography's good enough to know that the Thames Valley is left between Crofton and Savernake as the line crosses over Bruce tunnel on the K&A canal, but I would be frankly surprised if that was a well known fact.  And isn't Swindon in the Thames Valley, yet with the higher fares?

Bedwynis the extent on the old Network Southeast area, whichvwas always cheaper historically than furthervout on HST routes. Reason being that the NSE area was acceptedcommuting country, hence amazingly, accepted that fares needed to be cheaper to help commuters.

What we are saying is that FGW (Gretaer Western Franchise) still discriminate between the former Thames Trains Franchise and the former Great Wester n Franchise.

one example is exeter to london if you need to be in london by 9 via taunton it costs 209 return .... via yeovil costs 106 thats a huge saving of 103 !!! on walk up fairs... partly because there are no day returns to pad? or is this a mistake online. .. even the open return is only 121.20

Two different TOCs....

This may be a good example of the choices offered by different companies and setups as a result of privatisation.  3 hours and 20 minutes via Salisbury, 2 hours and 10 minutes via Taunton.  But then you need to factor in transfer times in London too; if you're headed to the City, the Drain is going to be quicker than the Hammersmith and City / Teacup lines.

To be fair though it isn't very practical to commute from Exeter to London as the first traind doesn't arrive until 08:38 and that is pushing it quite a bit if you have to be in the office for a 9 AM start.  Swindon is different though as the journey is only 1 hour but a journey from Swindon to London costs a fair bit more than a journey from Didcot Parkway unless you book in advance.  In the case of Swindon to London though there is no reason good reason why there should be cheaper fares, people that commute in from Swindon have no realistic alternative so if people want to keep there job in London then they will pay the fare.

Well it is two different toc's Chris But the route has always been cheaper even in br days factor in the network card after ten and its an even bigger savings, in the interests of fairness and to be impartial however it would be nice to get get a warm meal :-p

We were comparing prices on one TOC - the addition of the Salisbury royte into the discussion was rather a red herring....

Sorry Chris I amended my post while you were replying

You were not allowed to use the Network Railcard from Exeter for journeys to London Waterloo back in the days of BR at least not until the last few years.  It could only be used from Whimple or stations east of there.  The Network Railcard these days can be used on the 08:26 from Exeter St Davids to Waterloo.

For the record I only brought this up because of a previous post about the network south east area