Great Western Coffee Shop

Background for newcomers ... Of course it's perfectly within the rules to travel from A to C by train via B, with a ticket that's for the complete A to C journey.  It's also within the rules to travel from A to C with a ticket from A to B, plus a ticket from B to C - provided that the train calls at B.   You may wonder why on earth anyone would set out to intentionally buy two tickets rather than just one ... well, it turns out that sometimes the price of an AC ticket is more than the cost of an AB ticket plus the price of a BC ticket.

Let me give you an example.  If I want to travel on the 06:16 from Swindon to Salisbury next Monday (a direct train which gets to Salisbury at 07:36 via the shortest possible rail route that's still open), the First Great Western ticket site offers me an anytime single at 53 pounds.  But if I buy a Swindon to Warminster ticket (a day single is offered) I'll pay 12.20 for it, and a Warminster to Salisbury (Anytime day single at 6.30), my total bill will come down to 18.50 - just 34.9% of the lowest online price quoted for the same train with a ticket all the way through.

I'm going to be in London for a few days in the autumn, and I'm looking to travel very early one morning into Waterloo.  It's much more convenient for where I'm headed, and I don't want to have to struggle with heavy luggage onto and off the tube.  Let's see what that will cost:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/159pounds.jpg)

Hmmm ... that's a bit out of my budget.  "Rail travel is only for the rich" at times!

What does it cost from another station nearby?

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/34pounds.jpg)

That's much better - I can probably get a lift there.

But hang on - that 06:50 train at Trowbridge is exactly the same train as the 06:41 at Melksham, and I can pay 3.10 for a Melksham to Trowbridge ticket ... total cost 37.20 rather that 159.00, letting me travel - completely within the rules - for just 23.39% of the best price offered at the web enquiry when I was looking at buying a through ticket.

Whilst there will always be anomolies in any fare system, it has always struck me that there's something wrong or unfair about a system which frequently allows travellers to make considerable savings by spitting tickets.  I can think of very few other walks of life (except short term car parking) where it's often cheaper to split your purchases in this way.

Can anyone come up with any savings above my 76.61% on their local line / from their local station?

Another example of what a mess our fare system is in, Graham!

Err, grahame. Your comparison is slightly flawed. You've taken the Melksham - London Waterloo (cf London Terminals) route: any permitted Anytime Return at ^159, and compared it with the Trowbridge - London Waterloo route: Warmster/Salsbry Anytime Day Single.

Trowbridge - London Waterloo any permitted Anytime Return is the same price as from Melksham at ^159.00. Trowbridge - London Waterloo Warmster/Salsbry Anytime Return is ^68.20. That can be reduced to ^62.10 if you do not need to return in the evening peak by buying an Anytime Day Single on the outward (^34.10) and a Super Off Peak Single (^28.00) on the return.

Oh ...  :-\

Both of those screen captures were within a few seconds of each other ... using the National Rail website that offers a selection of stations to help with comparisons, and they were offered alongside each other.  I don't doubt you're right - that 159 seems exceedingly steep (even for a return), and that 34.10 remarkably good value even for a single.

I really should be able to compare like for like easily (Melksham v Trowbridge) on something that's set up to look like a price comparison site, but it seems I have been given (or misread) a comparison between a magazine and a biscuit.  For a like for like comparison, what IS the "Melksham - London Waterloo route: Warmster/Salsbry Anytime Day Single" fare?

The Biggest Nonsense I know ticket wise is this:

Penzance to Stranraer:

Penzance                                      d 06:28 Birmingham New Street                    a 11:58                                                   d 12:20 Carlisle                                         a 15:00                                                    d 15:15 Kilmarnock                                     a 16:55                                                    d 17:04 Stranraer                                      a 18:52

Walk on Anytime fare is ^214.00

However buy a Ticket from same Booking Office to Belfast Port.

Same Trains walk on fare is ^49.00

Thats 20.57% of the ^214.00 Stranraer fare, or a saving of 79.42%

But is break of journey permitted?

And is the Belfast ticket actually flexible? Csn you change your travel dates once purchased?

Er, there isn't one! You have to split at Trowbridge. So its ^3.10+^34.10 = ^37.20.

And just to complicate matters further you can buy a Shirehampton (or other SVB Line station of your choice!) - London Waterloo Warmster/Salsbry Anytime Day Single for ^30.80 plus your Melksham - Trowbridge ticket totaling ^33.90. That first ticket is valid for starting short a Trowbridge.

The Anytime Return from Shirehampton - London Waterloo is just ^54.00 which in combination with two singles Melksham <-> Trowbridge totals ^60.20. That is, I believe, the cheapest walk-up option available to you for a period return to London Waterloo from Melksham via Salisbury.

Well the ^49.00 ticket is shown as ANYTIME, and as I believe YOU have to leave Stranraer station to walk to the Harbour well I like to see a RPI pull you up for it.

The Belfast ticket quoted by smokey is an Anytime Day Single. Change of plans or refunds can be made up to 24 hours prior to departure of first train, subject to a ^10 admin fee.

Break of journey is not permitted on singles to Belfast NI or the outward portion of returns, except to change trains. Realistically though there is very little to stop you ending your journey short at Stranraer if that is your ultimate destination. However I cannot condone that. Abuse of the tickets to Ireland/Northern Ireland buy using them for mainland travel only could lead to ATOC withdrawing, increasing fares or amending the Rail+Ferry tickets.

And to return to the subject in the thread title I recently made a day trip to Liverpool from Shirehampton and saved a pretty penny by splitting at various points en route.

Shirehampton - Liverpool Lime Street. Anytime Return (SOR) ^133.00

My splits:

Shirehampton - Bristol Temple Meads. Anytime Day Return (SDR) ^3.00
Bristol TM -  Cheltenham Spa. SDR (XC Only) ^13.30
Cheltenham Spa - Bromsgrove* SDR ^10.40
Birmingham New Street - Stafford SDR ^5.35**
Stafford - Liverpool Lime Street. SVR (Virgin Only) ^19.60

Total ^51.65. 38.9% of the through fare. And with this combination I only needed to change trains at Bristol and Stafford.

*Valid to Birmingham due to a Routeing Guide easement
**Online price taking advantage of London Midland's half price sale

Ah - thanks - so that's 37.86% of the 159 pound fare offered on the web site.   I really don't want / need "any route" - so the more expensive fare would really have been oversold to me. And I'll probably take advantage of the splitting and see whether it's more convenient on my return to do the last leg by train or bus.  I much prefer the train, but if there's a bus due and no train for a few hours ....

Well, I can better that, but is has to be said with a fare that won't exist for long!

As of Monday, Birmingham Moor Street to Marylebone Anytime Return is ^75.

However, Moor St to Haddenham & Thame is ^24.60, plus a Haddenham & Thame to Wendover anytime singles x 2 (Any Permitted, which includes Marylebone!) which are currently 10p each !!! = ^24.80. That's 33% of the ^75 fare!

Again, that isn't really an accurate comparison. The ^75 fare is unrestricted and valid for return up to one month. The ^24.60 fare is an Off Peak Day Return with AM peak restrictions and return the same day.

As to Haddenham & Thame Parkway - Wendover being valid via Marylebone, I have severe doubts about that. The shortest route (or any route up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route) is always valid, which would be via Princes Risborough and Aylesbury. No other routeing would be valid, as unsurprisingly all routeing points fail the fares check rule.

And it could be possible to make each split as a seperate transaction if booking through a specific South-England based TOC's website ... http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=9382.0

That birm-had fare is an anytime fare, though possibly only valid one day.

That 10p fare is any permitted - I checked at two chiltern ticket offices and told it was valid via MYB. there is also a similar "Not London" fare.

Having re-checked NFM10 (valid from September 4th) the only fare priced ^24.60 I can see between Birmingham and Haddenham & Thame Parkway is the Off Peak Day Return. The Anytime Single is ^20.80, The Anytime Return is ^41.60.

Of course if a ticket clerk says that 10p ticket is valid via Marylebone then its valid. Quite how they've come to that conclusion I can't fathom. I'd want that allowance to travel via Marylebone in writing! Not only does The Routeing Guide disallow travel via Marylebone as that would fail the 'Fares Check Rule', there is no easement listed either. National Rail Enquiries and booking engines all disallow travel via Marylebone also.

In used outward timed @ 0600 and return toimed @ 1730 in chilterns own app & NRE. I got ^24.60 out from both for Monday 5th.

If you can't travel via MYB, prsy tell me the difference in routing between Any Permitted & Not London. It is unlikely for those both to be the same!

I've just looked at NRE and the cheapest walk-up fare I'm being offered is ^41.60 for a Birmingham Moor Street to Haddenham & Thame Parkway Anytime Return. (see attachment). I can't speak for the Chiltern or NRE apps as I do not have a smartphone. Can you somehow screencap the results your getting, ChrisB? Is the Chiltern app letting you get as far as making a purchase of this ^24.60 fare for travel out on say the 0619 from Moor Street?

---

The two routeings are explained simply as errors in the fares database, as is the 10p fare. Chat on other forums is that someone cocked up when a special fare was added to the database. The correct fares for Haddenham - Wendover are those that are in the database for the reverse direction, with only one flow, the Any Permitted.

I'm led to believe that Chiltern staff have been instructed not to sell the erroneous tickets. Anyone making a genuine journey between Haddenham and Wendover is to be sold an Any Permitted fare in the reverse direction, with the ticket suitably endorsed.

The 'Not London' designation was added for the special fare only. There is not supposed to be two flows for this journey.

Tickets at the incorrect price bought online or from the TVM at Haddenham (or from any ticket office, if sold) are however valid for travel. But not via Marylebone. The only permitted route is the shortest one. Unless you get a Chiltern ticket clerk saying otherwise of course. That then counts as an 'authorisation to travel' as per railway byelaws, but I'd want a bit more to rely on than, "The person in the ticket office said....."  ;)

Hmmm, ok, fares have now been ipdated since the ladt time I checked very early yesterday on these apps! There's noy a super off-peak for ^20, as well as a 1st class option for ^57ish! Very strange. I canno longer get that ^24.60 either at those times.

Re the 10p fares. If Chiltern knew about this fare, you'd expect them to have dealt with it?! Its been there for at leadt two editions of the NFM to my knowledge, and the Chiltern's fare wizard didn't express knowledge about it when sent a copy of the ticket.....

As such, I can't see how Choltern can refuse to issue it when it is being advertised for sale - the NFM is a public document, and we are nboth in agreement that the fare wasn't input by accident.

So it stands as a 'proper' fare by my reckoning, and one should be able to obtain it as 'advertised' in the NFM and on TVMs and apps.

I don't doubt your explanation as to how it happened though.

Re via MYB, the lass @ Banbury queried her ticket machine and vonfirmed that it definitely was valid via there. How thatbinterrogates the routimg manual I don't know, but there was no doubt being shown by the ticket seller.

It won't let me buy the 5p fare. LM and CH websites reject my (credit and debit) card. EC say that the "minimum total purchase cost" is 50p. Surely it is unacceptable for a ticket reseller to refuse to allow purchase of a single ticket!

Pure insanity!  ;D

If only all TVMs would let you buy the ticket. I'm too embarrassed to ask for one at a ticket office. I could "enquire"...

Since Virgin Trains put up prices on XC (befrore Arriva took over), many South West to the Midlands or North East journeys have become Cheaper going via London.

However in many many cases going from Devon or Cornwall to the Midlands, North East North West or Scotland you can save Money by rebooking at Cheltenham Spa.

Eg Plymouth to York ^141

However

    Plymouth to Cheltenham ^39
    Cheltenham to York       ^72
               Total              ^111 Saving ^30     

I've now got a confirmation number for my 5p ticket.  Ready to be collected this afternoon with my other tickets.  Of course, purely for souvenir value.

Considering this error was present in NFM08, NFM09 and now in NFM10, I find it surprising that a fix hasn't yet been implemented.

Editted to add that I am now the proud owner of a perfectly valid ticket for travel between Haddenham and Wendover (or any intermediate stations).  Now, how to get to Haddenham by 0230 tonight to use my ticket...

Totally agree, but it's in neither the TOCs or DaFTs intersts to sort this out, it's easier to sell an anytime, any permitted route ticket at maximum price, leave the errors in the fares manual and hope n ot too may people go to trouble of finding these ridiculous fares.

After all Hadenham and Thame Parkway to Wendover is not exactly a journey a large number of people make however if it is via Marylebone and allows a reasonable break of journey then it's a good way of getting from Thame to London. without going to Wendover.

Although did I pick up a hint from our fares gurus that an anytime any permitted route may not be valid on certain trains or am I just paranoid?

The Cheapest Railway Ticket I've got (stored somewhere) is a Pay Train ticket paid to the Gaurd for a Single from Gateshead to Newcastle, in 1973 I think.

Only shame is that it looks more like a Bus ticket but the price was ?? Any Guesses

There is no restriction code shown against this ticket, which means it is valid on any train through a permitted route.

I've just ordered another ticket for 5p, this time a SDS from Haddenham to Stoke Madeville.  Also ordered a Wendover to Haddenham ticket for two people with a Two Together Railcard.  I can't see this lasting long, so you get two souvenir tickets for the price of one!

Perhaps the Dail Mail article was corect. It appears that this cheap fare has been AXED!

Appalling... :P

collected from  bedhampton?

Yes.  Now my regular collection point as it is on the way to Tesco!

i did try to check if it was only available online today, but i forgot the second station :-p i will check tomorow

Sorry to grahame, who started this thread asking for examples where folks had made big savings by buying split tickets.

The thread did drift a bit after the Haddenham & Thame Parkway - Wendover fare anomaly was brought up. That loophole has now been closed*, at least online, and the 5p/10p tickets are no longer available. But not before I was able to bag one:

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/tickets1b.jpg)

 ;D

*Some folks on another rail forum argued that the error should not have been publicised on internet forums (as I did on RailUK - and others had done on uk.railway), lest the rail industry see the error and correct it. I'm all for exploiting loopholes to save a bob or two but this one was so obviously wrong that I felt no moral dilemma in posting.

That said, be it ^0.10 for the SDS or the now ^8.00, it would appear that Haddenham & Thame Parkway - Wendover is valid via Marylebone.... depending on how you interpret the rules laid out in the National Routeing Guide.....

So on that final point I owe an apology to ChrisB and to the staff who told him the ticket was valid via MYB. It could be allowed, depending on which bit of the Routeing Guide you read. One part says 'no' another part says 'yes'. :-\ I only read the part that said 'no' ....

But even ^8 from HDM to MYB Anytime is a bargain! Quite entitled to break the journey & exit @ MYB

can i please ask you both what method of payment was used? as im confused by something....

I purchased my souvenir ticket via redspottedhanky.com along with other tickets using an e-voucher.

For accounting purposes it looks like e-voucher purchases are classed as payment by warrant, as there is a 'W' after the price on my ticket.

Method of payment codes:

M - Cash, Postal Order, National Transport Tokens
Q - Cheque
W - Warrant
X - Credit/Debit Card

ahhh, i wasn't aware of e-vouchers, and was under the impression that you could only pay by card online, hence questioning the 'w'

My ticket was the same as bignosemac: an e-voucher through Red Spotted Hanky.

By no means a record breaker, but another example of just what a mess our fares system is:

A friend is travelling from Carlisle to Liskeard one way on Friday 21st October.  He wants to travel at 7am.  If you believe the National Rail Enquiries website there are NO advance tickets available ALL DAY.  It's ^158 whatever train you travel on.  His ideal train is the 07:04 which, with changes at Birmingham New Street and Plymouth gets him in at 14:20.

However, if you split your enquiry at Birmingham New Street, using the same trains as the 'no advances available' 07:04, you are currently offered Carlisle to Birmingham New Street at ^33.  And Birmingham New Street to Liskeard at ^42.  A total of ^75.  A saving of ^83!

Why on earth, if advance reservations are available on all the trains, doesn't the advance fare come up for the whole booking?  There are fares available on the next day, the Saturday, for ^65.50 throughout.  I repeat, what a mess!

Who prices all those fares?....

I haven't got a clue.  One of our fares experts can help perhaps?  Though that shouldn't matter of course - hence the post.

Carlisle to Liskeard: CrossCountry
Carlisle to Birmingham New Street: Virgin
Birmingham New Street to Liskeard: CrossCountry

Carlisle to Birmingham will be priced by Virgin (VWC), Birmingham to Plymouth will be CrossCountry (CC) and Plymouth to Liskeard will be FGW.

The through ticket flow (Carlisle-Liskeard) is priced by CC and it is notoriously difficult to get Advance Purchase tickets on a Friday AM on many long distance flows priced by CC (see here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=9134.msg93667#msg93667) for an explanation as to why).

By splitting the flow, you are then purchasing and Advance ticket from Carlisle to Birmingham priced by VWC and an Advance ticket to Liskeard from Birmingham priced by CC. I do agree that it's a a bit odd that an Advance Purchase fare is not available on the through flow when there are AP fares available on the constituent parts. But that's the way the system is and how CC works its yield management.

If not to late may I suggest to your friend (if he don't mind an hour wait in Brum) that he further splits at Newton Abbot. Currently the 1112 on 21/10 from Birmingham-Newton Abbot (CC) is priced at ^27.50. An Off peak Day Single from Newton Abbot-Liskeard is ^10.00. That's another ^4.50 saved on the through Advance from Birmingham to Liskeard.

Thank you, Bignosemac - your explanation does indeed make some sense of why the discrepancy is there, and I will mention the extra saving to my mate when I speak to him later.  Farcical really, isn't it?!

For me the saddest thing is those who pay these high fares not knowing about splitting tickets just accepting the fare that comes up on a journey like this one that crosses over TOCs fares boundaries when huge savings can be made IF you know how to go about splitting up the journey.

After the various Moneysaving & Which sites picked up on this, you'd need to be very unsavvy not to know about it

The more regular travellers, maybe, but not the occasional ones.  I've lost count how many times I've been told by friends, who fit into the occasional traveller bracket, that they looked up a price and it was ridiculous, only for me to have to explain to them them how to cut it down, be that a GroupSave ticket to Windsor from Oxford a couple of weeks ago, to avoiding Trainline.com booking fees, to this example from Carlisle to Liskeard.  If they hadn't known anyone in the industry they'd either have forked out much more than necessary, or, more likely, not done the trip by train at all.

In the Carlisle to Liskeard one, I even shocked myself with the saving that could be made due to the stupidity of the system.

Moneysavingexpert.com has millions of folowers. Featered on there regularly

Oh, that's ok then.  Problem solved...  ::)

To be fair Chris B, I think many people may know about split tickets on walk up fares, e.g. at NSE boundaries or at peak boundaries.

But even I hadn't thought of having to split due to different TOCs pricing Advance fares. This is yet another appaling way "Rip off Britain" is scamming money off hard working commuters.

A list of stations where different TOCs "take over" should be published, and the operator that prices each fare should be clearly visible on booking agents*. Joe public shouldn't have to buy the fares manual.

*This is also for VT, as VT allow railcard holders to travel in peaks with off peak tickets, as long as they price the route.

So, BHM and Plymouth are key changovers in the FGW area. Any others?

BHM is not - FGW don't price any Advance fares north of Cheltenham as far as I know.

Hence it's often cheaper to Rebook at Cheltenham with almost any type of ticket.

I meant for XC and VT but I take the point.