Great Western Coffee Shop

I buy tickets on line and usually travel from Wargrave on the Henley branch.  Station is unmanned and there is no ticket machine. 

I usually drive to Twyford the night before to collect the tickets from there.  However a couple of times the machine has been out of action.  The alternative is to collect tickets at Twyford when I change trains but the connections can be tight and there is often a long queue.

So, can I just give the credit card I used for the booking to the train manager for the tickets to be printed.

I ask this because I recently collected some on-line tickets from the ticket office in Bath. As multiple machines were out of action a nice person printed the tickets for me.  He didn't need my booking ref. just the card I used and he was able to print ALL the tickets booked on that card.  Hence, can a train manager print the tickets for you on board the train if you join at an unmanned station?

short answer - no!

the avantix machines used by the TMs are not capable of interrogating the database and issuing tickets purchased online. star terminals at stations can.

No  (unless you are in Norway)

New models of Avantix Mobile can do this as an optional extra, but this also requires a good quality wi-fi or 3G network.  AFAIK, no TOC has yet started using this "extra".

What's the policy then. Is your booking reference number valid on these occasions, or do you need the email?

The official position is you need the ticket.  Any departure from that is leniency/pragmatism, not policy.

Personally, I think discretion ought to be exercised in your favour if having no ticket is due to something like a broken TV machine, but it you are planning to travel without a tickert and get caught then I don;t have much sympathy.

For DB you print the tickets at home they have some kind of machine readable doodle on them. On the train you present to the gripper and at the same time you have to present the card you purchased them with. The gripper uses his machine to read the doodle and swipes the card.

If you are first class they will also fetch you a bowl of soup (you have to pay though) to your seat.

... and may I take the opportunity to offer you a warm welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, DavidH.  :D

Hi, David and welcome to the forum.

Personal view - and I think I'm being logical here - is that having bought an advanced purchase ticket, you should be able to turn up at the station for your train and travel using the travel you have purchased and paid for even if you haven't physically been able to obtain the magic piece of cardboard. 

It should not be incumbent on you to make another journey to collect the ticket from a different station before you travel, nor to attend the starting station prior to travel if it only has ticketing at other limited times, nor to have to book so far in advance that there's time for the tickets to be posted to you if you happen to travel from somewhere where the railway industry has decided not to provide appropriate collection facilities.

It's quite reasonable to then expect you to collect the ticket at the earliest sensible opportunity during your journey - and the proof of purchase (e.g. credit card / code number printout) that you'll have with you anyway in order to make that collection should be sufficient for any railway employee you come across to prove your "permit to travel" even if he / she can't actually issue the ticket.  And that "should be" should be a matter of right and not of relying on the "leniency/pragmatism" of any members of staff you happen to come across.

Of course, what I think should happen and what the rules say are different ...

Here, here Grahame a very pragmatic response.

it seems to me the TOCs want it both ways. They want you to buy on line  to save them having to provide ticket issuing facilities at their stations, either staff and/or TVMs.

Thus making it difficult to pick up the tickets that you've bought and paid for, but then they have the cheek to say , according to the rules, you haven't got  tickets thus are liable to a penalty or paying twice for something you've obviously purchased.

Also they are are not prepared to fork out for the necessary money to provide hand held devices to enable ontrain staff to access the Reference Number and issue the tickets you've bought.

They've got the best of both worlds saving costs and collecting extra revenue.

when you book tickets online it makes it quite clear which stations you can and cannot collect your tickets from, if your local station is unstaffed and no TVM then the system will tell you this

What happens if you buy an Advance the night before? Your local village station has no staff or TVM. You have no car and the bus service to any near towns was axed years ago.

In such circumstances as those, Btline, I'd really have to question your sanity in even buying an Advance ticket the night before ...  :o ::) ;D

You can always take the view of a fine chap sorry low life, who travelled with his girl friend who seemed plexed about not buying a ticket, last time I was on the (former Southern) between Honiton & Axminster

Mr Pond life explained to her (and the whole carriage quiet loudly) I NEVER buy a ticket, it's cheaper to pay a ^20 penalty fare on the odd occasions that anyone is onboard.

At ^4.10 train fare I hope he gets caught a LOT

Penalty Fares should not be issued repeatedly to the same person. Someone consistently failing to buy a ticket should be prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. A previous PF would be enough evidence to show intent IMHO.

The problem is that although you have proof the ticket has been purchased, you have no proof that it hasn't already been collected.  This could lead to abuse of the system where a ticket is purchased online, collected by person A whilst person B (and even person C, person D and person E) uses the printout to travel free for part of the journey.

Of course, a simple solution to this would be a method of checking the booking validity by on-train staff.

I can see (and have been in) BtLine's position.   A ticket is available at a fraction of the walkup fare but is impractical to collect. In these circumstances it becomes like one of those misleading adverts that draws you in with a great deal, only for you to find "out of stock" or "not available to you" ... the sort of thing that advertisers take great care to write just short of wording that the advertising standards people would object to.

I'm agreeing along Brucey's lines - that if the Train Operating Companies offer these fares, they should provide a practical way for people to be able to use them, without having to make an extra journey prior to the one for which the ticket is bought.    How about conductors selling a ticket to the first TVM station where the traveller has to change, and issuing a code against which can be entered into the TVM to get a refund applied to the card of that extra fare when the ticket is collected.  Or is that too obvious?

I agree with Grahame. It's discriminating against people who live at unstaffed stations or who can't use TVMs.

Re not paying: I know plenty of people who don't buy before they board. They buy a ticket if they have to - i.e. rarely. If they get RPIed or a temporary barrier is there, they just say they got on at the unstaffed station on the line. Much cheaper than buying a season.

Build more ticket barriers and increase RPI numbers. Pay for it by making some trains DOO.

And that solves the problem of not being able to collect an Advance Purchase ticket at certain locations or on the train, does it?  ::)

Making more trains DOO will mean it even less likely that on-train staff will be given the tools to issue AP tickets.

Madness! (or insanity  :P ;) ;D)

It seems to me that this is one instance that we the passengers are in the right.

If a TOC sells us a ticket online then that should be a valid transaction. No matter whether your local staion has staff or a TVM or you can't get to staffed station to collect be cause you only bought it the night before.

I'm afraid I don't buy the argument that another person could obtain the tickets whilst you retained the order. Most advanced journies have a seat reservation so you can't have two people siting in the same seat.

As I've posted before the TOCs don't want to tackle niggly problems like this because it's going to cost them money.

If any members of Coffee shop get caught not having tickets only an online form I would be prepared to contribute to a defence fund.

It needs to be sorted out for the good of the TOCs as much as us passengers.

It puts people off rail travel, I must admit that I still get jittery buying tickets online hoping I've got the right tickets for the trains I want to travel on.

My own view is that the railways are trying to emulate the airlines but in completely different enviroment. Most airlines don't have a 20 minute services to the same destination all day and don't generally don't have an open door policy with walk up tickets. Once a plane's  fully booked or overbooked, when people are left behind,  that's it no more passengers.

Rail is not like that, which is one of it's great advantages. In theory rail  allows spontaneous travel, however, the TOCS are supressing that advantage by pricing spontaneous travel off rail. Thus making us use our cars for such journies, which I didn't think was DaFT policy.

I almost had this this morning. Turned up at the station to pick up my advanced tickets to find a HORRENDOUS queue. Luckily I managed to grap my tickets and board, but if the machine had played up, I'd have had to join the even longer queue for the ticket office.

I feel I'd left enough time. But I forgot it was Monday morning and straight after the Summer.

In my situation, I'm dammed though. If I jack it and board, I get chinged for a return (as I can only collect my return portion from that TVM). If I queue and miss the train I still get chinged for a single (= the return price).

Hmmm....

I sympathise BTline a real catch 22 situation.

Do you queue to get your tickets and maybe miss your booked train or board the right train without a ticket, although you've obviously purchased one?

It's enough to put you of rail travel for good!

[devil's advocate mode on]

...or to encourage you to get to your departure station in plenty of time...

[devil's advicate mode off]

"plenty of time"

What is this? Why should I get there 20 mins before? The whole point of rail is to be quicker.

etc. The above post is devil's advocate.

It needs sorting - or we need smartcards/more accessible "mobile/iPod tickets".

Or there needs to be a sensible approach which many train managers with fgw seem to do in my experience. If station is clearly busy and large queues exist at booking office and tvm, then as long as proof of purchase of tickets is shown then you are free to travel with their blessing telling you to collect tickets at station you are travelling to if facilities exist. Those with the booking confirmation printed or e-mail to show on smart phone confirmation of booking when the train manager is checking tickets then it is likely the person is not trying to have a free ride and passed his ticket on. Of course the onus here is on the passanger to explain the situation at first opportunity to avoid trouble as hoping to not be asked at all just raises suspicion

FGW staff from certain depots if not pounced on by certain managers seem to be the most pragmatic of all of them!

I suspect in FGW land in any of the above scenarios - no ability to pick up, etc etc etc - 90% of TM's would be ok if you explained and showed proof

Other TOC's (South west being one of them) maybe not - I can't vouch

Most of them are humans and if you go find and explain and dont get aggressive they will be ok

 The only option is to be able to print your tickets on-line, I'm not aware if this capability
 exists on FGW at the moment.

 Then again someone would use the excuse 'my printer did not print the tickets properly'.
 
 Despite all the petty critcism of FGW, I think the introduction of this technology has made life a lot
 easier for most of us.
 Remember you can pick up pre-booked advance tickets before the day of departure and at any ticket office.

Agreed you can pick up in advance but it still means you have to make a probably unecessary journey to your nearest station that is able to issue prebooked tickets

Another reason why we need Smart cards. You buy online and load the ticket by touching the reader. I am shocked at the low speed the system is being rolled out. A trial was put on the LM Worcester to KID line years ago and it hasn't expanded! SN are just startig trials between Seaford and Brighton. Stagecoach have started installing it on buses and some SWT/EMT routes. Go ahead the same.

Has First rolled it out on buses or trains yet? Why not have a trial between Oxford and Worcester, to link in with the LM scheme?

Yes, they have: see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=9444.0  ::)

Hmmm. Cough... :D

Good news! Let's have it on the Severn Beach line and to Bath next then!

Which is great unless the station you are travelling from is quite a distance away, is only open at times you are busy etc. Also it seems that the industry is not so keen on the number of ticket offices so this may not be an option in the future. Sadly this means that for passangers like myself who travel from unmanned station just a shelter on the platform, I must pick up my tickets from a larger station with the nearest 20 miles away.

A short term solution would be for TOCs to offer a text service stating journey intended so this can be shown to the guard if incomming connections are late or there are unreasonable queues. Or of course develop a way to print advance tickets on board to be kept in TM office or buffet on the hst's for example.

Smart Cards are the obvious answer particularly for regular travellers, look how well Oyster has worked. I know many non London people, who can't buy Travelcards from their originating station, holding a PAYG Oyster card to travel around town when on a visit.

If you know how to play the system and keep out of Zone 1 you can cross London from West Drayton to Barking for less than ^2. The only problem is you need all day.

For advanced purchased tickets you have the DB system print at home and show together with the card you purchased them with to the gripper. Who reads the doodle printed on the form and swipes the card. Using the same multi purpose doodle and bankcard reader, ticket issuing machine etc.

Smartcards are the way to go.

Then all you need is a reader/writer pad at each station. You buy online, collect your ticket by tapping the pad at your boarding station (it is YOUR responsibility to care for & carry your smartcard, no one elses!), and tap out to show you haven't over-ridden your fare.

You would need a penalty add-on for forgetting to collect or close your journey, otherwise you could ride to anywhere!

Maybe worth adding to franchise requirements as they come up for bid? Ah yes, that could be the GW franchise to start....

Assuming the smart card has a defined journey loaded, there are still going to be passengers who have loaded an offpeak and try to travel on a peak service etc, people with reserved seats or reserved trains who try and use the wrong train, or attempt to travel off the route they actually bought.  Let's face it even when they have printed coupons to hand with the instructions on plenty of people try it on - and they aren't going to be able to read their own smartcard away from a TVM - a smartcard could make this sort of problem more likely?

I don't quite see why you would have to 'tap out' though, if you didn't you would be in no different a position to someone with a paper ticket who got off at an ungated station and kept his ticket.  I've heard that one of the criticisms of SWT's ITSO smart card is that they want season ticket holders to touch in and out on each and every journey - but there is no comparable requirement for passengers with paper tickets to do the same.  If a smartcard requires more passenger action than a paper version - what's the real attraction?

Paul

That's why I said you need to touch out as well, so if you travel outwith your ticket you can be charged a PF. That could be mailed to your registered address, and smartcard inactivated by readers if you fail to pay. You get a print out when you purchase at a ticket office/online....so you know what your restrictions are.

If you want the ease, you have to accept that your own responsibility is to rise. Ditto on phone tickets - your responsibilities to keep it charged will be more than just keeping a ticket on your person.


Beause its easier to defraud? And for smartcards to work properly, all stations would need gating, except for possibly the ery smallest. If there were ungated stations on the underground, Oyster wouldn't work either.


Probably because its easier to have everyone touch out, rather than some do & some don't, which could in itself lead to claims of confusion when fraud is taking place?


It's really not difficult to touch out every journey if the readers are situated in sensible places where you have to pass on exiting the station. Proves you've remembered it. Challenges fraud. If everyone was honest, it wouldn't be necesary. So those willing to jump their fares make it worse for everyone, that's life, unfortunately...

I do not see why small stations would need to have barriers.  Simply provide the same sort of card readers they have when you have to swipe your oyster to change routes.  LT inspectors have a device that can read the card and see whether it has been swiped in or not.  It would just put the responsibility on the passenger to swipe in and out. 

I'm not going to debate where the line between 'very smallest' and 'small' is, sorry.

Just to point out that Oystet works well on the Ungated DLR so why shouldn't a similar card work at ungated NR stations?

Because you hzve a ticket checker on every DLR train and few pax that seeing & checking every fresh pax is relatively easy.

Nothing like a three car/six car turbo or hst

I not sure it works that well on the DLR they do have problems with people travelling short journeys.  Also the penalty fare is curently ^50 and Boris is proposing to increase it to ^80 which is quite an incentive to validate your oyster before travel.

There are a few LU stations without ticket gates (e.g. South Kenton).  I believe the system works there due to people arriving at gated stations, therefore risking a penalty fare by not touching in.

On LU, it is important to distinguish between a 'penalty fare' and a 'maximum cash fare'.  The former is basically the same process as a National Rail PF, (although a different value[1], and would only be charged by revenue protection staff).  The latter is what the Oyster PAYG system charges automatically if you fail to touch in or out, and has a defined value depending on whether you are travelling peak or offpeak.

Although many PAYG users appear to think the terms are synonymous, they are definitely not.

[1] Another subtle difference with a TfL PF is that it is similar to a council parking penalty, in that the advertised sum is halved if payment made within so many days.  There was a consultation into making NR PFs ^50/^25 to come into line with TfL a couple of years back, but it seemed to die with the change of government...

Paul

No they're not - but imagine the max fare if smartcards came to the railway!...

This is why in my opinion 'PAYG' on ITSO will only ever work in defined urban areas for local journeys.  Many comments about how wonderful a PAYG style system would be on the national system are made without understanding how the 'entry charge' system actually works...

Paul

Not quite have you ever travelled on a 4/6 car DLR train at peak times! you rarely get your ticket checked. Assumming you were able to get on the train in the first palce.

No the answer with smartcards is within the Urban area (Tarrif Zone for Public Transport) if you don't touch in or out you get charged maximum fare you could have incurred irrespective of your journey.

For longer journies what a about a smart phone application with a reader that writes your journey on to the smart card. So you book and your tickets and seat resevations are on your card

The latest move is to put the Travel function on a debit card, I'll have to check with my cousin how far that's got! 

Can't help but feel that people are inflating the issues related to ITSO introduction. User 'training', a use discount, and a brief handover period where penalty/maximum fares are minimal, followed by a firm date for a much higher penalty would work. A touch in and out system would be easy to implement and would with record processing be sufficiently clever to handle day and period return tickets too. It would also deal with split ticketing revenue protection issues too.

What revenue protection issues are there with split ticketing?

Perhaps RailCornwall means Dumbelling which is an illegitimate use of multiple tickets, as opposed to split ticketing which is legitimate, and is only an issue for "revenue protection" in that sometimes people can get some better deals than they would by purchasing a single ticket.

Not heard that term, although I probably heard what it means. Can you define please?

Oh gosh - it's quite a while since we discussed it.  Search for "dumbelling" on the forum ... or there's quite a short and accurate description at

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=7182.msg71751#msg71751

Yes, I thoughtbit might be. Thanks

You point out that a 'touch in and out system would be easy to implement', but even now they can't get everyone to use it correctly in the London area, hence the regular media reports of Oyster rip off fares, and regular criticism from the GLA transport commitee...  This is predominantly caused by people finding either no ticket barriers, or that they are open (for whatever reason) - they just don't get the point that the system needs a touch in and out on the pads anyway - despite the max cash fare system having been in place since shortly after PAYG started.

Paul   

Comversely, i regularly see paper ticket holders trying to force said tickets into slot ecen though gate is already open. Hilarious!

It's really not difficult. Touch in and touch out. There are enough posters. Ok, we'll all forget once in a while, but having a Penalty Fare will soon make people remember.

And it's a good excuse to increase the number of gated stations and the times they are operational.

The Penalty Fare/Maximum Fare would have to be huge.  What would be the incentive to touch out after a lengthy journey when you could just pay a smaller maximum fare?

Oyster works on the tube as the penalties are all larger than the most expensive journey.  On National Rail, I don't think a ^600 maximum fare would work!

And the way PAYG works is that it deducts the max fare from your balance & then refunds the over once you touch out....

Yes, but I'm not talking about pay and go for NR am I?

And remember that guards would still check tickets. No touch in = penalty fare. Multiple penalty fares (if you try and blag Newquay to Kyle) = prosecution.

If I've understood you correctly then you are, aren't you? I'd have said that touching in/out for whatever journey you wish to make on the rail system counts as 'pay as you go' (which is a term used to distinguish paying for journeys as you take them, as opposed to having a period pass allowing unlimited travel).

Someone else has no doubt already pointed this out, but for a start there's an issue with first class - do you have separate 'pads' for first and standard at every station?!

What strikes me as a bigger problem is this - on Oyster PAYG, as has been pointed out, the maximum fare for the journey is deducted initially, then you're refunded as you touch out. Not enough credit, you'll be told to add more value to the card before you can make the journey. Deducting the maximum fare for a journey on NR is clearly not viable, so effectively the passenger would end up paying in arrears for their travel (rather than in advance for a paper ticket).

I'm struggling to comprehend what the advantage of your proposed system (smartcards, touching in and out but with guards still checking tickets) has over paper tickets, frankly, with the possible exception of enabling last minute advance purchases if you're travelling from a station where you can't collect tickets. That issue could be solved in a much more straightforward manner with some form of 'print at home' or eticketing as is already available with some TOCs, it doesn't require blanket smart cards!

My system, you load tickets onto the Smartcard. Buy online, on the phone, at a TVM or at a ticket office. Touch the reader at the start of the journey and again at the end to use the ticket and pass through barriers quickly. Guards check with a tap. If the ticket is not valid then it beeps.

No pay and go - apart from selected areas.

And those of us that regularly use split ticketing.....?

And why not just carry a paper ticket which you can dispose of at the end of the journey, rather than have to look after & remember a smartcard every time you want to travel.

Think before posting, Sir, not afterwards....

Yep that's the way to go btline preloaded tickets and/or reservations for longer journies. PAYG  or season for journies in local tarrifff zone .

Split tickets? Um, you buy the split tickets, you load the tickets onto the card by tapping in, tap to get through any barriers, tap on guard's reader. What difference does it make?

I'm sure people in London don't mind carrying Oyster cards around. I certainly remember mine when I go. I'm sure that hiking prices of all paper tickets (as in London) would get people to switch and remember their cards! As for remembering, many people keep it in their wallet/handbag anyway. One day, your ITSO card may be integrated with your debit card. I have thought before I posted.

And I'm actually a Lord, not a Sir... ;)

And if you don't meet a guard en route with your split tickets? (who would have to have all possible splits programmed into his hand held reader - with a 'live' link to the central database to ensure you weren't maxed fared when you tap out at your final destination) So, max cash fare (what would that be?) when you tap out at your destination? Or a system that has every possible 'split fare' on the rail network programmed in? I'd love to meet the guys who are tasked with programming in all those permutations! And if your legitimate split doesn't register? What then? A tortuous process claiming back the difference from Customer Services?

The same applies with split tickets if you don't need a guard.

Maximum cash fares don't apply if it's not pay and go. Just like you don't have to register a credit card when you buy a paper ticket in case you go further than the destination or sit in First Class. if you fare dodge, you are given a penalty fare, or you're prosecuted. The same would apply with a smart card.

It's a simple concept. Instead of having multiple tickets and reservations, everything is stored on a Smartcard. Instead of inserting a ticket into barriers, you "touch out". Instead of picking up tickets at a TVM or ticket office (or having them mailed) you pick them up by "touching in".

Revenue protection is easier. If the ticket is invalid, if it's peak time and you have an off peak ticket, or if you're on the wrong train, the guard is alerted. If you have a railcard, the guard can be alerted so he can check. You can't use a ticket more than once, as it is logged that the ticket has been used. Plus bus? Easy - just touch your card on the reader when you get on the bus, and the reader will bleep to say it's valid.

You can be a season holder in Bristol area and make a day trip to London without having an extra bit of paper.

It works in London already, the only difference is that you can also use the card for pay and go journeys within the zones.

Sorry, Btline, but you've yet to explain how split ticketing would work with a smart card.

Slightly debatable, given the number of column inches it has taken you to explain the system ;)


Again, debatable - Oyster has still not been fully "rolled out" (that phrase brings me out in a rash...) on all London suburban services yet, has it? And even if it has, that's a relatively small, densely populated urban area with fairly straightforward, often zonal ticketing, no seat reservations etc etc. In the US SEPTA has been muttering about trying to introduce smartcard ticketing on Philadelphia's regional rail system - a fairly straightforward system of routes radiating out from three main stations in central Philly. They still haven't figured out a way to do it. Last I heard was some hare-brained scheme to make it free to travel into the city but charge a double fare for travelling out, which also involved conductors re-scanning everyone's smart card after every fare zone boundary. Utter lunacy.

On a facile level it may seem attractively simple to say 'everything should be done using smartcards' but the way I see it the only advantage what you propose offers over paper tickets is the facility to purchase an advance ticket and have it immediately available, rather than collecting at a TVM/ticket office. For the sake of that, you have to equip every traveller in the country with a smartcard, every guard with a reader, every station with a reader, get a weapons-grade group of computer programmers to factor in every conceivable combination of split fares/alternative routes/breaks of journey, all at massive expense. There's no way it's going to happen this side of La-La Land. Ever.

2nd Jan 2010 was when full NR coverage was achieved in the travelcard zones, and also just outside the zones at Watford Jn and Grays.

Paul

And wanting to top up your Oyster at a SWT station within the zones....?

Despite assurances from SWT and TfL that Oyster would be fully available from SWT locations from May 2011, it is still the case that you can't top up, buy or load an Oyster PAYG card at most SWT stations within the zones.

Yes I have. No different to normal tickets.


Regarding London, all TOCs within the London zones now accept Oyster Pay and Go. So not debatable! Besides, we're not talking about pay and go.

You've explained how it works? Sorry, did I miss that? What do I need to do with my smart card when splitting at Didcot Parkway on a day trip with walk up tickets to London from Bristol?

I know that, but I think the point was whether it had been rolled out to all NR [train] services, rather than retail facilities.

Paul

You buy the tickets.
You touch in at the barriers at Bristol to load the tickets.
You touch out at Paddington to get through the barriers.
If you're ticket checked, you touch your card on the reader. As ticket(s) is/are valid, there is a green light and the guard walks on.

Somebody shoot me. (cue: proably a lot of offers... :'( )

Well, you have rather tied yourself to a stake and pinned a paper target to your chest... ;)

Time for Btline to be AXED? :D

Anyone got a gun?  :P ;) :D

And if I break my journey en route? Sorry but I don't see how, in my one example, all the route/BoJ/overnight stays can be programmed into a nationwide smart card system.

The current system struggles to take account of all the permutations because it is just too complex. A system that requires massive computational power as it is - 'The Manual', ORCATS, LENNON, National Routeing Guide, National Rail Timetable, RailSail, PlusBus, GroupSave, Rovers/Rangers, Railcards, Peak/Off Peak/Super Off Peak, Seasons.....

I really would love to meet the programmer(s) who could reconcile all that into one accurate smart card system.

Yes, it's often said that with enough monkeys and enough typewriters they could produce the complete works of Shakespeare, but you are looking at decades worth of incomprehensible gobbledygook before they get there..... and it would be bloody expensive.

Oh, if it were as easy as scaling up Oyster.....

Still haven't told us how Revenue Protection will work either at stations with no barriers.

The TOCs worry will be that not having to purchase a physical ticket will mean a lot more temptation to avoid buying - which will either prevent this being popular with TOCS and your idea failing, or more RPIs being employed to keep down fraud.

I vote BTLine pays this increased cost out of his pocket, or he has to solve the problem. Checking smartcards will take at least twice as long as looking at a paper ticket, and we know how often a guard is unable to get through his train - either for the number of stops on route, or crowded trains....

We've moved an awful long way from the original question here, and I fear that the spirited and boisterous approach of some contributors may have frightened off DavidH - our topic starter, who's a first time poster.

Regrettably, we're all agreed that you're not allowed to purchase a ticket online and collect it on the train.  The train conductor doesn't have the ability to issue such tickets.

Also, regrettably, there's no mechanism through which you can print out or have a proof of purchase to let you travel, so you must either collect it before you start your journey (even if that involves an extra trip), or book far enough ahead to allow for it to be delivered.

There are times that - with a pragmatic approach and goodwill from the staff involved, you may be allowed to travel based on a "proof" of purchase from a station that has no ticket issuing facilities to one where you have arranged to collect your ticket, but if you do / try that, you're relying purely on the goodwill of the staff member(s) concerned.

I think we can all agree that it's very frustrating that you can book a ticket online for a National Express coach journey, print it it out at home, and travel without having to go somewhere other that where you join the coach to collect first. And you can book an airline ticket at home, print it out and checkin without having to go somewhere other than your starting airport first. You can do the same with a ferry ... gosh - I understand some of the issues, but I really with the trains could find a way of coming into line with the common standard!

You can do print at home tickets on some TOCs, e.g. XC and EC. I think it's a bit cheeky to get me to print my own ticket, but it saves a trip to the station.

Hmmm - you're not fully comparing like with like here - certainly for flights & coaches, you book onto a certain service (like an advance, and with Advance rail, you are able to print @ Home with some TOCs) - and likely with ferry trips too.

If you book a fully flexible air ticket, you can't print at home until you select your flights. I think this is true of coach tickets (and I think ferry tickets)....

So, if you're happy to have to specify your service before travel, yes, you could Print @ Home your rail ticket a lot more easily too....

Not put off at all - an excellent discussion.  Based on the advice here I went to Twyford as usual to collect my tickets the day before and then caught  a direct Henley - Paddington train from Wargrave. (WGV is an unmanned station with no machine - it even has free parking so its not all bad).

Thank you, DavidH, for such a well-reasoned and restrained reply!  ;) :D ;D