Great Western Coffee Shop

Following on from a post i made in somebody elses thread in another forum, where 5 pages later they are still discussing my post not the original thread question, thought i'd post here for peoples opinions?
here is the post i made:


The scenario is purely hypothetical

As long as you -

a) got a witness to say you'd been queuing for 20 minutes
b) checked for a guard or such to purchase on the train
c) got a witness for the 10 mins at the end

I reckon any penalty fare could be successfully appealed.

But no proof, no win, I'm afraid.

Thanks Chris, the question was purely hypothetical, as it got so many replys yet no answers on the other forum, i thought it would be interesting to see the response on here. The other forum is showing many different and interesting replies. One reply said that SWTs see queuing indefinitely as acceptable queue time

I think all TOCs do, even though they all have targets to meet most of which are no more than 5 mionutes at peak times - it is only a target, not a guarantee.

I think the Penalty Appeal people would see it differently, but of course they need proof....

I had this situation about four years ago.  My proof was the pay and display ticket from the car park which showed I had parked the car 22 minutes before the train was due.  PF was cancelled on appeal.

Problems arise though when it isn't a Penalty Fare being issued.

What if you are stopped after giving up on buying a ticket at your destination, interviewed under caution, and a prosecution is instigated under the Regulation of Railways Act?

No reference to queuing standards in the RRA. The onus is on the passenger to pay for their journey when an opportunity was available. A long queue at the destination ticket office has not removed that onus on the passenger.

BNM nobody after 250 posts on the other forum has made such a sensible comment. (i see you have just made a comment on that thread/ forum actually)

another scenario, if someone turns up at station in more than enough time to buy a ticket, but encounters unusually long queues, misses train as a result, next train isnt for an hour, could they claim Delay Compensation, as they arrived at their destination late due to fault of insufficient ticketing facilities?

In that scenario, I would certainly be complaining to the TOC. They don't have an obligation under Delay Repay or Customer/Passenger Charters to pay compensation for delays incurred while queueing. From a purely legal standpoint, you haven't actually formed a contract with the TOC yet. But they should be made aware if a particular location is failing to meet any published acceptable queueing times that TOC may have. Goodwill gestures would be the only compensation due.

Most, if not all, TOCs have a part of their Charter that mentions acceptable queuing times for purchasing tickets. None though state that you are free to board without a ticket if their queueing time standard is not being met. Some will sell Anytime fares onboard, however.

In Penalty Fares areas you may be successful appealing a PF if you can prove that a queueing time standard was not being met. Again though, that doesn't remove the onus on the passenger to pay for their journey at the earliest opportunity. Bit of a catch 22 in some cases, but the law doesn't do shades of grey!

The laws and byelaws are very clear. You MUST be in possession of a valid ticket or other authority to travel and any purchase should be at earliest opportunity. So that's:

a) A ticket office or TVM at your start station (if it's a TVM and the fare you want isn't available then you should purchase a fare that enables you to make part of your journey, then excess at the earliest opportunity).

b) A 'Permit to Travel' ticket if facilities exist to issue one. Again exchanging for the correct fare at the earliest opportunity.

c) On board a train if travelling from a station with no ticket buying facilities.

d) At your destination station if it has a ticket office and no earlier opportunity was available.

The only slight grey area is if your destination has no facilities and no earlier opportunity was available. I believe that in this case only you would not be required to buy a ticket. Leaving aside the argument, "How can I buy a ticket?!" - the law usually defines what a 'reasonable person' would do in a given circumstance. It would not be reasonable for you to go out of your way to seek somewhere to pay for your journey.

Hypothetical and 'what if' scenarios cannot be written into legislation. Cold hard facts are; you must pay for journey, and must make that payment at the earliest opportunity.

Most ticket offices are equiped with CCTV, would examination of the recording count as proof of the queue time ?

I had that about six years ago at Egham

Was in plenty of time - about three hours early actually - no parking - tried Staines - no parking - back to Egham - waited until free space - queue at ticket office - literally ran onto the last train that would get me to putney for a crucial meeting - walked straight up to guy on barrier explained everything

Kerching - penalty fare

Think I've posted on here about it before

They would first need to prove intent to defraud.

As I said earlier, that is purely a target, not anything close to a guarantee, and unenforcable against the TOC.


Unfortunately, that video belongs to the TOC - it wouldn't be available to you for a defence.


And I bet you lost any appeal?
It is your responsibility to park in good time - the TOCs are under no obligation to keep a space for your car.

If you are facing criminal charges the TOC wouldn't be obliged to give you a copy of the video?  If you were convicted in a trail where material evidence like that was withweld, that would be a miscariage of justice.  The police and CPS are certainly are obliged to disclose evidence that may be useful to the defence. 

Access to CCTV images is available by making a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 1998 for the sum of ^10.

Indeed they would if they were using that video evidence themslves

Chances are that they wouldn't be calling that video as evidence, so they wouldn't need to release it to the defence.

But Brucey's comment does stand, if he's correct.

See 9.2: http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/cctv_code_of_practice_html/9_responsibilities.html

If you're stopped by an officer of the railway who has seen you walk past an open ticket office at your destination and you attempt to leave the station having not yet purchased your fare, then that is sufficient proof of intent. Plenty of successful RRA 1889 prosecutions have been made by TOCs for just this scenario. Just asked Northern Rail's prosecutions dept. They're particularly tough on fare evasion, going for RRA 1889 prosecutions more so than byelaw breaches. That said, first time offenders can usually settle out of court, but that still ain't cheap. Does avoid the criminal record though. Second time? You'll almost certainly be taken to court.

Northerns prosecution team are very hot on the subject, yet often fail to provide an opportunity to purchase a ticket!

what is the procedure if you board a train at Penryn, travelling to Falmouth. no ticketing facilities at either end, and the TM does not get around to you? Journey time is about 8-9 minutes from Penryn to Falmouth Docks, 2 intermediate stations in this time. Despite the massive increases in passenger figures i still see this happening daily when the train is busy.
Could you be really honest and phone to pay or is there another way?

I personally always look where the TM is and board near him/her as i'm all for supporting the local lines, and want to see that 90% increase in journeys made increase even more, so wish to pay my fare. others obviously look where tm is and go to the other end to avoid!

The question here is "how long are you expected to hold your ticket for"?  In my opinion, once you've stepped off a train and are outside a compulsory ticket area (if present), the ticket can be disposed of.  However, it seems Northern think differently and expect a ticket to be retained until leaving the railway.

I think it reasonable, at unbarriered staffed stations, to hold on to your ticket until you step through a station exit.

Just don't drop it on the floor the moment you step outside though. Those pesky RPIs are often backed up by BTP PCSOs - one of whom may decide to issue you with a fixed penalty notice for littering!

 ::) bignose - don`t forget tickets are TOC property, so should you give them back at end of journey !

Hmm. I tried to do that once, at a Revenue Block on platform 1 at NLS: the RPI to whom I proffered my ticket was rather brusque, to be honest - and all I was trying to do was to return my ticket, as required?  :o ::)

Which begs another q - if I didn't have a ticket but was going to nailsea and saw a revenue block - I would merely stay on the train to another destination and get a ticket in between

Its a bit like people who get done by speed cameras - they don't look ahead

Or they could just charge you with the strict liability byelaw 18(1) or 18(2).

This is probably for another thread, but what is the point of fixed speed cameras? There are signs, your SatNav will bleep, there are white markings on the road and the camera is painted yellow! Same when there is a train announcement - if you havn't bought a ticket, please get off the train and buy one as RPIs are going to go through the train and penalty fare you. Why warn them? Surely the aim should be to fine and prosecute as much of the dodgers as possible?!