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Title: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on July 30, 2011, 17:44:26 What is the point of a day return?
Why should it be any cheaper to travel just because you are coming back on the same day? Does it have any benefits for balancing demand? - if so I cannot see what it is? Why are they only available for some journeys. It is the availablity of the day return from Didcot to London, but not from Swindon to London that makes the Didcot split so beneficial. If we are going to simplify the ticketing system then surely this is one ticket that could go, or if it has some use, be made universally available. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on July 30, 2011, 19:06:23 yes i would be glad to pay more for a return for my day trip,the month long validity more than makes up for my extra cash..... not
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: paul7575 on July 30, 2011, 19:12:54 One major reason for a day return is to allow discounted return travel without too much room for repeat (fraudulent) travel. In a large area of the southeast it is the only return available, ie for places around 35 -40 miles apart. Because the return half of Offpeak returns has a fairly long validity, it was found that people would use them repeatedly until the ticket was marked by a ticket inspector.
Demand can be (and often is) spread out by having slightly different time restrictions on return and day return, or different evening peak restrictions. Paul Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: super tm on July 30, 2011, 21:33:56 I would point out that the Anytime day return is a regulated fare and hance virtually impossible to abolish. There would be some seriously bad headlines for the government if they did so.
Its one of the aonomalies of privatisation that Anytime day returns were regulated but anytime returns (valid for a month) were not. At privatisation a return from Oxford to London was not significantly cheaper than a return from Swindon to London. Both are about an hours journey time. But the fare from Oxford happened to be a day return and is now ^51 but the fare from Swindon was an open return and is now ^109 - a huge difference. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on July 30, 2011, 22:09:51 I would point out that the Anytime day return is a regulated fare and hance virtually impossible to abolish. There would be some seriously bad headlines for the government if they did so. Its one of the aonomalies of privatisation that Anytime day returns were regulated but anytime returns (valid for a month) were not. At privatisation a return from Oxford to London was not significantly cheaper than a return from Swindon to London. Both are about an hours journey time. But the fare from Oxford happened to be a day return and is now ^51 but the fare from Swindon was an open return and is now ^109 - a huge difference. yes i would be glad to pay more for a return for my day trip,the month long validity more than makes up for my extra cash..... not Thats what I am getting at. It seems those of you who can get a day return are being heavily subsidised by those of who cannot. At the moment there are circumstances when if there is a small group of us it is cheaper to get a taxi from Swindon to London than take the train! I see there may be an advantage in reducing fraud, but surely proper ticket inspections would achive the same end. No one has yet given me a load balancing reason to have them If there were no day returns (and so the anytime became the regulated fare I assume) then FGW would not be able penalise those of us who happen to live outside the old NSE area. On the other hand if they are so great then extend them to the whole network! Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: paul7575 on July 30, 2011, 22:20:03 If there is a wide difference it is purely down to FGW's policies.
Comparing SWT's Southampton to London fares, they are: Anytime Return at ^68.80, Anytime Day Return is ^68.20 Offpeak Return at ^37.20, Offpeak Day Return is ^36.80 Paul Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on July 30, 2011, 22:27:30 If there is a wide difference it is purely down to FGW's policies. Yes but both fares are available there! There is no Day Return from Swindon to London!Comparing SWT's Southampton to London fares, they are: Anytime Return at ^68.80, Anytime Day Return is ^68.20 Offpeak Return at ^37.20, Offpeak Day Return is ^36.80 I would point out that the Anytime day return is a regulated fare and hance virtually impossible to abolish. There would be some seriously bad headlines for the government if they did so. So what is the regulated fare when there is no day return? Demand can be (and often is) spread out by having slightly different time restrictions on return and day return, or different evening peak restrictions. Can somone explain how a day return restriction helps spread the load. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: JayMac on July 30, 2011, 23:22:28 There are day return fares to London from Swindon:
One Day Anytime Travelcard: ^114.50 One Day Off Peak Travelcard ^53.00 One Day Super Off Peak Travelcard ^44.00 With those, I suspect a small group travelling on GroupSave will be cheaper than a taxi to and from London. Still cheaper to split at Didcot though! Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on July 30, 2011, 23:26:31 There are day return fares to London from Swindon: One Day Anytime Travelcard: ^114.50 One Day Off Peak Travelcard ^53.00 One Day Super Off Peak Travelcard ^44.00 With those, I suspect a small group travelling on GroupSave will be cheaper than a taxi to and from London. Still cheaper to split at Didcot though! Those are just the Day Travelcard add-ons to the Anytime Open Return to London. They can make no contribution to spreading the load! I will have to look into GroupSave though - good point. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: JayMac on July 30, 2011, 23:35:10 The One Day Travelcard products from Swindon aren't just the walk-up fares with a day travelcard add-on. They're cheaper than the separate tickets.
A Zones 1-6 Travelcard costs ^15.00 peak and ^8.00 off peak. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: bobm on July 31, 2011, 00:35:22 Having just walked though the door after a night out at Winnersh Triangle (dont ask) it does seem slightly perverse that the off peak day return from Swindon to Didcot Parkway is ^9.40 while the off peak from Didcot to Winnersh Triangle is ^6.40. Mind you still better that the ^21 all in one ticket.
Some very late trains out of London Paddington because of a fatality at Ealing Broadway. I got home on a heavily delayed Cardiff service. I got home before the train I planned to catch had reached Reading. That begs another question. With split tickets what's the position with disruption at the end of the day? Are they only honour bound to get me to Didcot or all the way to Swindon? Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: devon_metro on July 31, 2011, 00:51:07 Having just walked though the door after a night out at Winnersh Triangle (dont ask) it does seem slightly perverse that the off peak day return from Swindon to Didcot Parkway is ^9.40 while the off peak from Didcot to Winnersh Triangle is ^6.40. Mind you still better that the ^21 all in one ticket. Some very late trains out of London Paddington because of a fatality at Ealing Broadway. I got home on a heavily delayed Cardiff service. I got home before the train I planned to catch had reached Reading. That begs another question. With split tickets what's the position with disruption at the end of the day? Are they only honour bound to get me to Didcot or all the way to Swindon? Swindon - however (assuming there is one) they will make you wait till the next train that stops at Didcot, however a combination of tickets counts as one journey, so they have to get you there eventually! Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: JayMac on July 31, 2011, 01:30:32 d_m is correct. Split tickets do not reduce any rights you have under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage in the event of delays, cancellations or being stranded because of those delays or cancellations. This even applies when one or more of your split tickets is an Advance Purchase.
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: IainH on July 31, 2011, 11:41:54 Heresy though it might be to say, part of this is a British Rail legacy issue. A long time ago, day returns were available for most journeys (I recall buying several Glasgow - London day returns in the 80's) and then along came the saver. It was marketed as 'like a cheap day return, only it lasts a month'. And from that time day returns were roughly restricted to journeys under 50 miles - although there are exceptions in both directions. Of course it soon became obvious that a saver cost more than the cheap day return did - although not to the extent it is today. It made sense then, though, as there was only the equivalent of the anytime period return (full fare) or the day return (cheap fare), and for many journeys there was a fares gap in between which the saver filled. (And advance tickets did not exist then).
The bit that baffles me about the fraud angle is that until a few years ago, most ex NSE flows had the period return of 5 days validity - "Network Awaybreak". Then it largely was moved to have a months validity, same as the saver. This would give more room for fraud rather than less. In any case the train companies could help themselves on this, e.g by having barriers stamp dates on return halves or making the guards use sensible ticket punches rather than scrawls that mean nothing (but thats another thread....). Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Btline on July 31, 2011, 14:24:50 There is an lm guard who felt tip pens the date onto all period returns.
I do think it should be simplified. Perhaps axe all day fares- but I suspect it would be used to put fares up! They certainly need to make a single half a return (or at the least 55%). More barriers and PROPER checks would prevent fraud. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: super tm on July 31, 2011, 16:02:52 The regulated fare on the swindon route is the super off peak return
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on July 31, 2011, 20:12:18 hold on ..... if you rent a car for a day you would pay less than renting it for a month.... is that also unacceptable?
with month long valid return YOU ARE PAYING A PREMIUM FOR FLEXABILITY NOT A SUBSIDE FOR PEOPLE HAVING A DAY RETURN !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on July 31, 2011, 22:37:04 If you rent a car for a month you have it for the whole month and you can do as many journeys as you like. If you buy a return ticket you can still only go there and back!
It seems to me that the day return dates from a time when there was plenty of spare capacity and it was an incentive to get people who needed to be somewhere for a few days to do multiple journeys rather than stay overnight. Since we are now in a period where capacity is the issue this seems to be an anachronism. The London travelcard add on is different as that is unlimited travel for the whole day not just an outward and a return journey. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Tim on August 01, 2011, 09:12:08 It is a source of added complexity and confusion. It creates stupid anomlies. IMHO, we need to rip up the whole fare system and start again from scratch with one type of return only preiced at twice the single price and with a single set of peak conditions.
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: TerminalJunkie on August 01, 2011, 09:27:45 If you rent a car for a month you have it for the whole month and you can do as many journeys as you like. Where do you get the free petrol, then? Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: paul7575 on August 01, 2011, 11:22:12 It is a source of added complexity and confusion. It creates stupid anomlies. IMHO, we need to rip up the whole fare system and start again from scratch with one type of return only preiced at twice the single price and with a single set of peak conditions. In the areas like Greater London where there is only one type of return, it's the Anytime Day, to prevent fraudulent re-use, as I said earlier. Prevent that somehow and you'll be onto a winner - 100% ticket barriers nationwide perhaps? Your subsidiary point, about one set of peak conditions is impossible to achieve as well, given the length of some journeys. Paul Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Tim on August 01, 2011, 11:37:27 Your subsidiary point, about one set of peak conditions is impossible to achieve as well, given the length of some journeys. What about a single set of rules that say you are in the peak if you "arrive into a London terminus or Glasgow or Manchester or Leeds or Birmingham (etc) between &:30 and 9am or depart between 4:30 and 7pm" If that leads to distortions in demand then address them by changing the lengths of trains or adjusting AP quotas. I woudl certainly take the responsibility for setting ticket restrictions out of the hands of TOCs who have proved that they can't be trusted to use them to prevent overcrowding and primarily (ab)use them to maximise revenue On the preventing fraud issue, my suggestion would be to require the passenger to validate their own tickets in a date-stamping machine on the platform as in much of Europe. You would need to install the machines but as they work unattended they would be cheaper than ticket barriers. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Chris2 on August 01, 2011, 14:42:45 On the preventing fraud issue, my suggestion would be to require the passenger to validate their own tickets in a date-stamping machine on the platform as in much of Europe. You would need to install the machines but as they work unattended they would be cheaper than ticket barriers. I agree the installation of ticket validation machines would help in preventing fraud. It would also allow carnet tickets to be validated and could allows companies to buy tickets in bulk for common journeys such as London Paddington to Reading. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: inspector_blakey on August 01, 2011, 15:39:18 On the preventing fraud issue, my suggestion would be to require the passenger to validate their own tickets in a date-stamping machine on the platform as in much of Europe. You would need to install the machines but as they work unattended they would be cheaper than ticket barriers. The only problem here is that, under the current rules, with a peak/off-peak/super off-peak period return ticket you're entitled to break your return journey as many times as you like as long as you stay within the time restricitons applicable to the ticket you bought; if you really put your mind to it and there were 30 stations between your origin and destination you could make an overnight stop at every one of those on your way home. I know it's technically an extreme case, but it would be an entirely legitimate use of the ticket. That's one reason why even dating the tickets as some guards do with a pen or Zifa doesn't necessarily help - the return portion can completely legally be used in stages on different days! Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Tim on August 01, 2011, 17:02:19 The only problem here is that, under the current rules, with a peak/off-peak/super off-peak period return ticket you're entitled to break your return journey as many times as you like as long as you stay within the time restricitons applicable to the ticket you bought;That's one reason why even dating the tickets as some guards do with a pen or Zifa doesn't necessarily help - the return portion can completely legally be used in stages on different days! Good point, but in my utopia you would remove the entitlement to break your journey in teh interests of simplifcation (because it is a complicating factor atthe moment because a break is allowed on some ticket types but not others) . If you had a sensible distance-based pricing structure, removal of this entitlement wouldn't disadvantage anyone because buying separate tickets for a multileg journey would cost about the same as a single ticket for the same journey. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: super tm on August 01, 2011, 18:13:33 On the preventing fraud issue, my suggestion would be to require the passenger to validate their own tickets in a date-stamping machine on the platform as in much of Europe. You would need to install the machines but as they work unattended they would be cheaper than ticket barriers. I agree the installation of ticket validation machines would help in preventing fraud. It would also allow carnet tickets to be validated and could allows companies to buy tickets in bulk for common journeys such as London Paddington to Reading. And the abolition of ticket barriers. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on August 01, 2011, 19:57:40 scrap discounts, replace with one flat fair for occasional or one off travellers and introduce a nationwide oyster card type scheme which grades passengers so a basic user would get a 10% discount on standard walk up fair and the top users would get 50% discount, no more season tickets, no confusing fairs, would possibly solve the silly fair raids situation?.... would cost a fair bit to implement and i guess we need to know how well it works in london.... the possibility is even there then to roll it out on connecting buses (i believe all stagecoach buses already have the ticket machines with the reader built in)
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on August 01, 2011, 20:29:15 If we are to start again with a new fares system then could I suggest some principles for a new fare system.
In there would need to be some phasing and the basket should be closely monitored so that it is not used to take more money from us overall.
The tricky problem is with off-peak reductions. How about defining the heavily loaded sections of track where demand is an issue and give reductions for not passing through those sections in the peak periods. Hopefully there could then be some consistency to the definition of peak periods. The reductions would be applied to these sections only. That way long distance travellers are not penalised for using a half empty train for most of the journey just because they go through the first or last bit in the peak. If there are two peak demand sections on the journey these could also be easily accommodated in pricing. Should there also be a reduction for using a (significantly) slower train rather than an express? Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: RichardB on August 01, 2011, 21:01:51 My question to all of you is why should anyone take the big extra steps needed to change the current system? It would take a system-wide champion devoting a year or two to it and for, in my view, dubious benefit.
The point of a day return is to attract custom at off peak times. Particularly outside London, it is very price sensitive as we found on the Tarka Line (Barnstaple) back in 2006 when we persuaded First Great Western to reduce the Cheap Day Return from Barnstaple to Exeter from ^10.70 to ^7.00. This has helped lead to huge growth on the line. Filling otherwise empty seats is why we have Off Peak/Cheap Day Returns. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: LiskeardRich on August 01, 2011, 21:07:19 not only on the trains is it cheaper to do a day return, I am also a ferry enthusiast (and anything transport really) and to take a 24hr fare with brittany ferries is a lot cheaper than say a 5 day return, which again is a lot cheaper than a longer return.
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on August 01, 2011, 21:50:15 My question to all of you is why should anyone take the big extra steps needed to change the current system? It would take a system-wide champion devoting a year or two to it and for, in my view, dubious benefit. The point of a day return is to attract custom at off peak times. Particularly outside London, it is very price sensitive as we found on the Tarka Line (Barnstaple) back in 2006 when we persuaded First Great Western to reduce the Cheap Day Return from Barnstaple to Exeter from ^10.70 to ^7.00. This has helped lead to huge growth on the line. Filling otherwise empty seats is why we have Off Peak/Cheap Day Returns. Nothing wrong with off-peak tickets why day returns? But some day returns aren't off peak they just give a cheaper fare for coming back the same day! Thats why split tickets are discussed so much! If you don't think the present system is terminally broken look at other posts in fares fare. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: inspector_blakey on August 01, 2011, 22:28:21 not only on the trains is it cheaper to do a day return, I am also a ferry enthusiast (and anything transport really) and to take a 24hr fare with brittany ferries is a lot cheaper than say a 5 day return, which again is a lot cheaper than a longer return. And yet if you want a cheap long-haul flight there is generally a requirement buried away in the fare rules for your trip to include a Saturday night stay! Not to mention avoid flying Thursday - Sunday. (with apologies for wandering off topic...) Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: RichardB on August 01, 2011, 22:45:28 Nothing wrong with off-peak tickets why day returns? But some day returns aren't off peak they just give a cheaper fare for coming back the same day! Thats why split tickets are discussed so much! If you don't think the present system is terminally broken look at other posts in fares fare. Split tickets are a completely different issue and I would abolish the need for them. It should not be cheaper to buy split tickets. Day Returns attract shoppers and all manner of leisure travellers to the railway and are priced accordingly. The railway needs their business. The fares system is complicated but for a reason, because there are lots of different fares to attract off peak custom (Advance Purchase, Rangers, Rovers etc). Peak fares reflect peak demand (and, to be frank, people's willingness to pay). Yes, it's not pretty but I'd far rather have the system we have than a more restrictive one that prices off many leisure journeys. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on August 03, 2011, 11:58:07 Different fares are what is sometimes called "fractioning the market" in economic terms. Rail travel is basically one commodity with a wide market but some people have greater needs to travel than others, i.e. peak hour commuters and the business traveller. The leisure traveller's needs are less and they have to be persuaded to travel by offering them lower fares and this is done by placing various conditions on the tickets that prevent the essential rail traveller from using the lower fares. Remember, the rail industry has relatively high fixed costs to operate and relatively low variable costs so the full fare traveller has to pay in his ticket price for most of the fixed costs. Cheap off peak fares make business sense when the revenue generated is more than the marginal costs even if the cheap fares make little contribution to the fixed costs. Operationally, variable fares enables the railways to persuade some travellers to change their travel times so helping to ease over crowding of peak hour trins and fill up empty seats on off-peak trains - but you knew all that already. My offpeak advance Saturday fare from Oxford to Paddington of around ^2.55 with my rail card persuades me not to use the alternative slightly more costly but still cheap Stagecoach Tube coach service for a leisure day out. Its all quite simple really but the railways somehow seem to make everything so complicated for the rail user.
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ChrisB on August 03, 2011, 16:14:19 Fraud, purely & Simply. People were repeatedly, in the days before barriers, using the reurn portion more than once. Higher fares in L&SE meant a lot of money was being lost over the month of validity....so it was changed to a day.
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: paul7575 on August 03, 2011, 16:30:25 Fraud, purely & Simply. People were repeatedly, in the days before barriers, using the reurn portion more than once. Higher fares in L&SE meant a lot of money was being lost over the month of validity....so it was changed to a day. I tried that explanation in post #3. No one took much notice, so I wish you luck... Paul Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ChrisB on August 03, 2011, 16:42:38 It's true - I researched it via ATOC a while ago.
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on August 03, 2011, 21:30:33 I have no problem with off-peaks, super off-peaks (so long as te ordinary passenger can understand what the restrictions are) or even advanced fares. These seem to justifyably fraction the market as CLPG says.
It seems to me that thew day return has no role in this and is being used to unreasonably disadvantage travellers from one place against another See earlier post comparing Swindon and Oxford fares. Surely the demand and capacity constraints are just the same from Oxford and Swindon? It is the line from Reading to Paddington. The regulator for the water industry would not allow such blatent discrimination in the water pricing scheme so why does ORR? Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ChrisB on August 03, 2011, 21:35:32 This now dates back to the Network SouthEast area before privatisation. Thst was the time that day returns ought to have gone.
They're now part if the franchised fare system. I suspect they are revenue earners for L&SE TOCs and there's no appetite for change amongst TOCs, including reduced fraud. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: super tm on August 04, 2011, 12:58:51 You have to have day returns. They should be only for short journeys up to say about 30 miles in length. Anything longer should be the one month return.
If you abolished day returns then a ticket from Worle to Weston Super Mare would be valid for one month. To stop the ticket being reused you would need to have a lot of extra staff. In order to do a full check between these two stations on an HST would probably need 4 staff. For such a small fare that would not be justified. The other option would be to increase the penalty fare to something like ^100 and have make the passenger cancel their own ticket before boarding at Worle. Caught with out a ticket or one that has not been validated would get the penalty fare. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on August 04, 2011, 19:52:09 As ChrisB says, much goes back to before privatisation. BR incereased fares on certain routes more than others when it thought the market would stand such increases. The old Great Western Trains inherited many of these fare structures. However Thames Trains, inherited some lower fare structures and many of both have been frozen into the regulated fares system. It has left us with some longer journeys where there is a choice of routes (e.g. Hereford/Worcester to Paddington with major fare differences according to route chosen. This encourages all this research into finding the cheapest fare or combination of fares. Do other country's rail systems have such complexities?
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 05, 2011, 01:19:49 ... If you abolished day returns then a ticket from Worle to Weston Super Mare would be valid for one month. To stop the ticket being reused you would need to have a lot of extra staff. In order to do a full check between these two stations on an HST would probably need 4 staff. For such a small fare that would not be justified. Agreed. ::) And I think you would need a similar number of staff on the class 150s from Nailsea & Backwell to Weston-super-Mare via Yatton, Worle, (and yes, even Weston Milton!) just to negotiate their way through those severely crowded carriages, in order to check tickets, in the holiday season ... ::) Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: SusanW on August 05, 2011, 13:23:32 Having once commuted into London from Oxford, and now (occasionally) from Swindon, I've always wondered why the fares were so different. The answers here partly explain the reason, but don't make it any fairer!
I once questioned FGW over the difference in fares for a similar 1hr journey and then told me it was because Swindon gets far more frequent services than Oxford! But that doesn't make any difference to me. Unfortunately the Fair Fares 4 Swindon campaign http://fairfares4swindon.wordpress.com/ hasn't really moved recently but it does have some useful figures for comparison! Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ChrisB on August 05, 2011, 14:17:27 The differences you mention Susan, are down to the Network SouthEast region - Oxford within & Swindon outside. Historically, fare rises were treated differently, and generally people didn't commute enmasse from Swindon until a decade or so ago.
Since privatisation, fare rules became the same across the country & trapped anomalies within the system. They are difficult to iron out without losing a lot of money on the best flows. It also doesn't help that Didcot & Oxford fares are now the same - so you can't just increase Didcot-London fares as everyone would just buy from Oxford, cheaper. Oxford & Cotswold fares will rise I'm sure. They are lower because of the service limitations on the Cotswolds. Now this is less of a problem after redoubling, I suspect that the fare loadings Didcot & north thereof will rise towards the Swindon level of fares, so the dustance travelled reflected in each fare more fairly. It isn't that Swindon is over-expensive, rather that Oxford is over-cheap on mileage covered Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on August 05, 2011, 20:22:54 It isn't that Swindon is over-expensive, rather that Oxford is over-cheap on mileage covered What fare per mile would you consider is the correct one for an anytime return then? 71p a mile is considerably more than it would cost me to drive it? Surely the prie should at least not make it more expensive than a lone driver at rather more than the current 45p inland revenue mileage rate. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ChrisB on August 05, 2011, 20:57:16 That 45p rate is considerably under-specified now. That was set a few years ago now when petrol was a lot cheaper.
A better comparison is the amount it would cost you to drive it, including congestion charge & parking Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: JayMac on August 05, 2011, 21:48:24 According to the AA the current median pence per mile cost (mid priced car, mid range annual mileage) including all running costs and depreciation is 48.3 pence per mile. That's based on today's average price for a litre of unleaded at 136.59p
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/running_costs/petrol2011.pdf If you are commuting to London by car, then assuming 223 working days a year (5 day working week, less 25 days holiday, less 12 Bank Holidays) there's an additional ^2230 for congestion charges added to your unavoidable standing costs. That bumps up your pence per mile to 58.17p. You may have free employee parking at your place of work but if not your pence per mile is getting very near that headline 71p for the fare from Swindon. And lets not forget that 71p per mile is for an Anytime Single or Return from Swindon to London, so hardly a fair comparison with either HMRCs or the AAs costs. A weekly season ticket from Swindon - London with a Travelcard plus a 5 days car parking at Swindon Station will set you back ^236.30. Excluding any mileage on the Underground that works out at a pence per mile of 30.1p An annual season travelcard plus an annual car park season will set you back ^9932*. Based on the aforementioned 223 working days that's a pence per mile 27.1p. And you've got a ticket valid for as many additional journeys along your line of route as you like. And just how much compensation do you get if you are delayed by an hour or more on the roads? Let the train take the strain. ;) :) *This price is based on the annual rail season ticket from Swindon - London Zones 1-6 plus 12x 1 month car park seasons at Swindon Main Car Park. I can't find an online price for an annual car park season. Suffice to say if there is one it will most likely be cheaper than the 12x 1 month, further reducing the pence per mile cost. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on August 05, 2011, 23:10:56 And lets not forget that 71p per mile is for an Anytime Single or Return from Swindon to London, so hardly a fair comparison with either HMRCs or the AAs costs. A weekly season ticket from Swindon - London with a Travelcard plus a 5 days car parking at Swindon Station will set you back ^236.30. Excluding any mileage on the Underground that works out at a pence per mile of 30.1p But i do not do the journey every day I have to go two or three times a month like many other people here who are trying to run a business here in Swindon. I could park for ^12 a day in the hours I am there, but I still have to pay ^7.50 to park in Swindon. So that is still more than 63p per mile. for one of my regular visits I could park for free so that 71p per mile! All you discounts seem to centre round a daily commuter for business to thrive in Swindon we need to get to London in the peak. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: devon_metro on August 05, 2011, 23:21:06 Google reckons it would cost me approx ^22 in petrol costs to drive to London from Swindon in my car (return).
So thats ^30 with ^8 congestion charge. Certainly more reasonable than ^109 on the train. The argument about insurance and what not is really not relevant in this case, since I already own the car and insure it. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: JayMac on August 05, 2011, 23:40:21 But i do not do the journey every day I have to go two or three times a month like many other people here who are trying to run a business here in Swindon. I could park for ^12 a day in the hours I am there, but I still have to pay ^7.50 to park in Swindon. So that is still more than 63p per mile. for one of my regular visits I could park for free so that 71p per mile! All you discounts seem to centre round a daily commuter for business to thrive in Swindon we need to get to London in the peak. Fair enough. In your circumstances it would appear that you have little choice but to pay the ^109 Anytime return. That can be reduced to ^63.60 for a day return in both peaks by splitting at Didcot and Reading (and using a Routeing Guide easement) but that saving of comes with the disbenefit of limiting the trains you can catch to those that call at Didcot Parkway. Google reckons it would cost me approx ^22 in petrol costs to drive to London from Swindon in my car (return). So thats ^30 with ^8 congestion charge. Certainly more reasonable than ^109 on the train. The argument about insurance and what not is really not relevant in this case, since I already own the car and insure it. ^10 congestion charge, plus parking. And fixed costs (insurance, Vehicle Excise Duty, depreciation) along with other running costs are relevant if you want an accurate comparison when calculating and comparing car versus train pence per mile. And be thankful you don't have to travel from Westbury - Paddington in the peaks. That's 83.3 pence per mile! Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Btline on August 06, 2011, 00:31:12 Urgh - no. The fixed costs apply whether I drive up to London or park at Swindon station. Any vehicle running costs other than petrol are going to be tiny relatively speaking. The car isn't going to magically disappear, even if I walk to the station!
Parking in London eh? Ok - the train fare should also have the price of parking at Swindon added to it. Which is ^8.40! Bloody hell - that's almost as much as the congestion charge! :o The fare to Swindon is appalling (a season is HIGHER than a Liverpool to London season**) and should be AXED down to a more suitable fare immediately! >:( * according to http://en.parkopedia.co.uk/parking/carpark/swindon_station_main/sn1/swindon/ **according to http://fairfares4swindon.wordpress.com/season-ticket-scandal/ Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: devon_metro on August 06, 2011, 00:37:56 ^10 congestion charge, plus parking. And fixed costs (insurance, Vehicle Excise Duty, depreciation) along with other running costs are relevant if you want an accurate comparison when calculating and comparing car versus train pence per mile. Fair point if you want an 'accurate' figure, however, most people who use the train probably also own a car, particularly those who can afford to commute from the West Country to London! If I were to go to London tomorrow, by train, then I would still have my car sat on the drive and i'd still be paying for all the various things it costs me. As such I consider taking the train an additional cost since I am effectively wasting a resource. As it happens, my car is reasonably economical and I struggle to spend more on petrol vs a like for like train journey. I now usually only travel by train if I can get some bargain Advance Purchase tickets. i.e. if i'm travelling to Southampton I can get tickets for as little as ^3.30 with a railcard. The fixed costs for my car this year have been ^795 + 135 + 30 = 960. If we assume I live in Swindon and each trip to London cost me ^50, then 20 trips would cost me ^1,960. Similar journeys by train would cost ^2180. This of course assumes I live within walking distance of Swindon station, not to oncur other costs! Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Ollie on August 06, 2011, 00:41:53 The fare to Swindon is appalling (a season is HIGHER than a Liverpool to London season**) and should be AXED down to a more suitable fare immediately! >:( * according to http://en.parkopedia.co.uk/parking/carpark/swindon_station_main/sn1/swindon/ **according to http://fairfares4swindon.wordpress.com/season-ticket-scandal/ Do note however that the fare quoted for Liverpool to London is only valid on London Midland. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Btline on August 06, 2011, 00:46:51 Ooo - that would take a while... :D
Still - my point still stands. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: JayMac on August 06, 2011, 00:47:16 **according to http://fairfares4swindon.wordpress.com/season-ticket-scandal/ Nice misleading table of fares there. The Swindon Any Permitted fares have been compared with route or operator specific fares. For example the fares from Bristol and Bath are those routed via Salisbury. The fare from Liverpool is London Midland only. The fare from Southampton is Southern Only and the 7 day price is wrong. On 07/01/2011 it was ^98. I don't disagree that rail travellers from Swindon pay a relatively high price to get to London but to fail to compare like for like products is disingenuous and misleading. Fair point if you want an 'accurate' figure, however, most people who use the train probably also own a car, particularly those who can afford to commute from the West Country to London! If I were to go to London tomorrow, by train, then I would still have my car sat on the drive and i'd still be paying for all the various things it costs me. As such I consider taking the train an additional cost since I am effectively wasting a resource. As it happens, my car is reasonably economical and I struggle to spend more on petrol vs a like for like train journey. I now usually only travel by train if I can get some bargain Advance Purchase tickets. i.e. if i'm travelling to Southampton I can get tickets for as little as ^3.30 with a railcard. The fixed costs for my car this year have been ^795 + 135 + 30 = 960. If we assume I live in Swindon and each trip to London cost me ^50, then 20 trips would cost me ^1,960. Similar journeys by train would cost ^2180. This of course assumes I live within walking distance of Swindon station, not to oncur other costs! Points conceded. I was using the AA's pence per mile figures which are of course based on averages. As is the way with such calculations - YMMV. ;) ;D Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on August 06, 2011, 16:50:28 What the above blogs go to show is that "there are lies, damned lies and statistics". In other words you can use figures very selectively to prove what you want to prove - something that government statisticians are very good at. Many years ago one of my jobs for which I had been volunteered by my boss, was to calculate the mileage rate for the Local Government Association. These rates were applied to people using their car on local authority business. The basic "essential user" rate assumed that you first had to buy a car for work purposes, which as has been pointed out elsewhere, is not always the case, but in many cases was so when a married couple already had a car that the partner used regularly but perhaps the claimant had no need of to get to work. Every possible expense went into that calculation from Depreciation of a new car, loss of interest on capital, insurance (including the extra costs of work use cover) to licence and maintenance and wear and tear plus fuel and ended up with a very high mileage rate. If as many people did, only owned one car that was also used for personal and family use out of work hours, it meant that most of your personal car use could be financed from your car allowance claims. AA car rates are calculated very much on these assumptions. High train fares would never have come up to that car mileage rate and could therefore be made to look good value by comparison. However if you calculate a car mileage rate by your marginal costs of running the car, i.e. fuel, car parking and a modest contribution to standing costs, car use can look exceptionally cheap against rail fares.
The problem that faces all public transport is that it is very difficult to make a real comparison between modes. For most people the standing costs of owning a car (depreciation, interest on capital, insurance and licence etc, once they have been paid for are then forgotton when comparing the costs of using their car compared with rail or bus fare. Public transport costs are simply enormous compared with most people's marginal costs of using the car. Add in the flexibility of using the car when you want to without reference to the discipline of timetables and ignoring the personal costs of tiredness and frustration with traffic delays that road users accept but often complain about for rail, you can understand why public transport has such a small proportion of all travellers in this country and why the roads are so often so congested. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: JayMac on August 06, 2011, 18:39:29 And another important factor as to why the car often wins when it is an option versus rail: Personal space.
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Btline on August 06, 2011, 19:04:20 I'll hold my hands up. Normally I am very suspicious of stats. However in this instant I just read them, GASPED, and then posted on here without checking (why alarm bells didn't ring when Liverpool was cheaper...). Lesson learnt! However, I still think the comparison with Oxford is justified. And remember that Chiltern's fare to Oxford is likely to be lower - but Swindon has no other operator or route (unless somone starts an Open Access from Melksham to London!)
But the fact is, people buy the fare, so it will remain. There are always pros and cons of driving. With London, traffic and parking will always lean me towards rail. That's why the prices are high! So sorry Bignosemac. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: LiskeardRich on August 06, 2011, 20:12:35 Urgh - no. The fixed costs apply whether I drive up to London or park at Swindon station. Any vehicle running costs other than petrol are going to be tiny relatively speaking. The car isn't going to magically disappear, even if I walk to the station! it depends how often you are driving the route though, and if you work on route. Also depends what you drive, for me the 71p a mile stated above for the route, is a slightly cheaper than many larger cars. I drive a Saab 2.3 petrol turbo, yes i wouldnt use it if i was commuting such mileage, and would consider a diesel alternative. Which magazine state a 3 year old version of my car costs 76.4p a mile taking into consideration all wear and tear, depreciation, insurance, tax servicing costs (based on main dealer service costs at recommended miles interval). Which magazine publicise on their website, running costs per mile taking into consideration all normal costs that can be incurred, and i can confirm it is significantly higher than HMRC's 45p a mile for nearly everything on the road barring little 1.1s and similar Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on August 08, 2011, 17:50:50 I once questioned FGW over the difference in fares for a similar 1hr journey and then told me it was because Swindon gets far more frequent services than Oxford! But that doesn't make any difference to me. I looked up peak morning trains and the service looks very similar in frequency and duration of journey. Fair enough. In your circumstances it would appear that you have little choice but to pay the ^109 Anytime return. That can be reduced to ^63.60 for a day return in both peaks by splitting at Didcot and Reading (and using a Routeing Guide easement) but that saving of comes with the disbenefit of limiting the trains you can catch to those that call at Didcot Parkway. Not come accross a double split before can you explain that one please? Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: grahame on August 08, 2011, 18:14:30 I once questioned FGW over the difference in fares for a similar 1hr journey and then told me it was because Swindon gets far more frequent services than Oxford! But that doesn't make any difference to me. I looked up peak morning trains and the service looks very similar in frequency and duration of journey. I'm not doubting it's what you were told, Susan ... and indeed it's historically sorta-correct to my understanding. Oxford was served by local trains in Network South East, which tended to be somewhat slower and a little less luxurious. Swindon was an express 125 service - faster, and in those days there were more tables and legroom. It can't be the current frequency or duration ... with just 2 trains a day, Melksham's London fare is 69.50 single - about 70p per mile, and the journey is 1 hour 35 minutes - average speed 63 m.p.h. Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: ellendune on April 03, 2013, 11:44:43 Since this thread ended up talking about fares simplification I have resurrected it, but mods feel free to move.
Welcome News from First Land North of the Border Rail fares cut amid overhaul of pricing system (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/rail-fares-cut-amid-overhaul-of-pricing-system.20682305?) Quote PASSENGERS will see prices on dozens of rail routes reduced by as much as 41% in a bid to iron out decades-old anomalies which meant it was cheaper to buy two tickets than pay a single fare. The lower fares will be brought in to end more than 1500 "split ticket" inconsistencies by the end of next month. The move will ensure that most full destination fares will be at least 50p cheaper than buying one ticket part of the way, and a second ticket to complete the journey. More than 250,000 ScotRail journeys will be affected by the cut from May 19, around 0.3% of the 81 million journeys taken in Scotland last year. Transport Scotland has provided ^2.28 million to help pay for the changes to be brought in. Transport Minister Keith Brown said: "We have always been clear on our commitment to getting more people on Scotland's trains and a major factor in that has been ensuring affordable and easily understood fare structures. "It became apparent that, due to historic pricing regimes in the franchise specification agreed by the previous administration in 2004, passengers had to navigate their way through a fares database to find the best deal. "That's not what we want. We want a fares system which is quick and easy to use and which provides the cheapest fare possible. And that is what we and ScotRail are now delivering." All the journeys affected are on routes between Scotland's main cities, with the size of the cut varying from route to route. After May 19, a passenger travelling between Glasgow Queen Street and Dundee will pay ^10.10 less than at present, while the cost of a fare between Glasgow and Aberdeen will drop by more than ^15. A trip between Edinburgh and Inverness will fall by more than ^6, while a journey between Edinburgh and Glasgow will be 60p cheaper. Passenger groups have welcomed the news, saying a cheaper and more simple fares system saved travellers both time and money. Anthony Smith, chief executive of Passenger Focus, said: "Hard-pressed passenger will be pleased to hear some fares are set to become simpler and cheaper. Passengers who had previously trawled through websites looking for unusual fare combinations will no longer need to do this. "We welcome anything that leads to cheaper fares and a simpler system ^ something our research highlights is important to passengers." The announcement is the latest attempt by ministers to keep control of rail fares. The Scottish Government said in December that peak fares in 2014 and 2015 will not go up by any more than inflation, and off-peak fares could be frozen if inflation stays below 3.5%. However, despite the drive towards ending split-ticketing fares, ScotRail has not been able to address all inconsistencies that may result from comparing "multiple leg" journeys, because of the huge number of potential combinations. Less common combinations of fares may prove cheaper, but these will be much rarer. In addition, as Strathclyde had different off-peak restrictions, the Government admitted some inconsistencies would remain. Steve Montgomery, managing director of ScotRail, said: "This is another example of us putting the customer first, by tackling the fare inconsistencies that are most prevalent in Scotland. "Transport Scotland's welcome support means we have accelerated our efforts in this area, providing easier access to best value rail fares." I am surprised is cost as little as ^2.28M Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: paul7575 on April 03, 2013, 13:09:46 I am surprised is cost as little as ^2.28M This point is probably fairly relevant: Quote More than 250,000 ScotRail journeys will be affected by the cut from May 19, around 0.3% of the 81 million journeys taken in Scotland last year. Paul Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Kim on April 30, 2013, 20:03:52 The higher price of period returns as compared to day returns is one issue, but what I would find to be more of a problem (were I not a season ticket holder for my route) would be that period returns aren't available at all. I travel from Melksham to Bristol Temple Meads; I believe that Trowbridge definitely has no period returns and Swindon/Chippenham/Melksham/Bath/Keynsham are probably all the same.
Title: Re: What is the point of a day return? Post by: Southern Stag on April 30, 2013, 23:27:36 Period returns aren't generally available on shorter distance journeys, there is a high potential of fraudulent use of them being the reason I've seen cited for it.
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