Great Western Coffee Shop

Commuter (? - looked like one!) gets in at Aldermaston, sits beside me, falls asleep.   Conductor comes round, checking tickets after Reading.  Commuter is asleep but conductor wakes him.   Commuter fumbles in pockets, conductor waits.  Eventually commuter stops fumbling, pulls out a 20 pound note and asks for "single to Paddington please". "From Aldermaston" when asked.   I wondered if this was an attempt to avoid payment ... but was a bit puzzled at this as we had already been told via tannoy to keep tickets as "barriers may be in use at Paddington".  Turns out we arrive at one of the ungated platforms, and I suspect that I watched a regular scam [attempt] going on.   No proof of course, but it smelt fishy.

Whenever I see them in action, I have to admire the cool of most conductors; just how they can remember so many people, who they've seen before and who not, I don't know.   I'm not a fan of the penalty fare system / threat that's behind it because it puts off so many genuine potential passengers (the people the railways need to attract if their to grow traffic), but I really wish at times there was a somewhat more Draconian system that caused people who regularly try to avoid paying (and no doubt get away with it sometimes) to at least have some sort of excess levied every time they get caught.

Documented really for discussion - an example of the micro / specific when at times we talk much more generally. "Case law" if you like

Edit to update title - to add "?" - see later in thread

Went on a visit to FGW's REvenue Protection / anti-fraud department a couple of months ago, as a Customer Panel member - found the stories that they provided absolutely fascinating....

There is some serious fraud on the railways, and the book is rightly thrown at them. Prison sentences await for the worst, so it's really not a good idea, folks.

We encounter fare evaders like that every day, they are the worst kind in my view, CAN pay but WONT pay unless challenged.

I just wish someone sometime would check the tickets on my trains.. Fare evaders must be having a field day on them...  :o

May I humbly suggest changing the title of this topic? Maybe even just by adding a question mark.

Nobody KNOWS that this was a deliberate attempt not to pay.

Let's just suppose the commuter in question reads this, recognises himself, and happens to be a solicitor on his way to court having been up until 5am preparing his casework.

He'd have a field day!

Being smartly dressed (you say he "looks like a commuter"), carrying cash in large denomination notes and napping on a train all have perfectly reasonable explanations.

I'm not saying you're not wrong, Graham - you're probably spot-on - but, this isn't in the members only area of the forum and we should be a little circumspect about what gets placed in the public domain.

No he wouldn't - as no one knows who it is, no one can hardly be in a position even to attempt to describe them. There's no possible claim....

Phil ... interestingly, I did think hard before posting, wondering if I would be publishing a clue as to a train that always comes into an ungated platform at Paddington.   However (you'll see from another thread) the train was "off piste" with its platforming on his journey, so I let it go.

My original text (but not the subject) make it very clear that it looked to me like an attempt not to pay, not that it was actually what it appeared - so I don't think I've got a problem there.   Furthermore, I didn't tell you whether this was a smart commuter or not, the colour of his hair, shirt, skin or shoes ... so he can't be identified.   Highly unlikely that the person (I did give gender away) would want to draw attention to himself by getting shirty in this circumstance, even if he had a reason that I haven't thought of for needing to buy the ticket in the way he did.   However - I AM adding a "?" as it makes the title factually accurate.

P.S.  If there *is* a good reason and the gent in question (or anyone else who has found him / herself acting in this way) reads this thread, can he please get in touch and explain - then we can complete the story here, and balance it out.

I'd normally let this ride, but I'm afraid your rather confrontational approach demands a response, ChrisB.

Graham very clearly stated that [he] "looked like one" [ ie a commuter].

Graham himself is therefore clearly in a position to be able to describe said person should he be required to do so.

Pwnd.

But he hasn't, so what is your problem? Only he could describe thisd person in sufficient detail as to draw legal proceedings - and its his site?.....so maybe a PM/IM, but npt worth the posting you put up, surely?

Actually Graham I'm surprised you're surprised.

TOC's are fully aware of the extent of fair avoidance and have decided on a level of policing that is acceptable to them. The recent 'gating' at Filton must have given First food for thought but I haven't seen an increase in revenue protection subsequently.

Everyone is complicit in this, lazy commuter who doesn't purchase ticket on the good possibility they won't be checked, but will be quite willing to pay on challenged. Onus on TOC to ensure they pay. It would be very difficult to challenge a defence that they didn't have enought time, ticket office closed etc etc. Plenty of other threads on this sort of behaviour.

in all walks of life there are random people who are totally unable/unwilling to conform to standard procedures or the 'norm' some people are out to con you some people just dont care and others just get on with what they want to do and some people are stupid, ive done jobs serving/ interacting with customers and 95% of the time things go a set way, then someone will come along and with no good reason wont want to be rushed and wants to make themselfs feel important my using up your time its most likely just this tbh... that person at the supermarket in front of you that takes 30 mins to pack the bags dispite the huge cue and packing area provided fr example :-p

I'm afraid I'm not ... (surprised) - didn't say I was, I don't think.  I was taking the opportunity of quote an instance / example for discussion which [just] didn't go too far in either divulging people's personal information or giving away data for others to use the same system which appears to be an attempt to travel without making payment.

I appear to have kicked off a lively debate as to my wisdom of making the post;  I've heeded Phil's suggestion of adding a tiny change to make it very clear that I'm asking if (and not stating that) this is an attempt not to pay. And - by the way - I'm excellent at remembering numbers and can't remember faces for toffee.

there are now 2 Inspectors in the Bristol area as a result of the Filton and other excercises

Moving in the right direction finally. Maybe a few floating inspectors can be hired that can move about freely on the network to areas where there are no barriers/ticket offices etc. to give more opportunities to purchase tickets for genuine passangers whilst also helping revenue duties on routes where guard may be busy with other aspects of the job such as opening doors etc.

Being inspectors they will be "floating", they wont just be sitting in Bristol all day.

Have you tried playing Railway Buckaroo?

Excellent news, vacman!  ;D

I do hope that they will be on board just as many of the various services to Weston-super-Mare as they can manage, this summer holiday?

You wouldn't possibly be suggesting that the residents of Weston-super-mare and visitors alike are more prone to avoiding paying a fare are you Chris  :o

Honestly, have you not been to Weston recently?

No, I'm not suggesting that at all, devon_metro.  :o

I'm merely pointing out that many of those travelling to WSM in the off-peak will not have had the opportunity to buy their 'GroupSave', or indeed any other tickets with ready cash, if they join the train at Bedminster, Parson Street or Nailsea & Backwell - and they will no doubt welcome the opportunity to do so, from a very friendly FGW RPI on board the train ... ::)

And yes, I have been to Weston recently (by train). Your point is ... ?  :-\  ;D

Apologies Graham  :-[ shouldn't base responses on speed reading. Ok I'm also surprised that you were 'puzzled'. I'm sure I'm not the only one who plays 'guess the scammer' at peak times. Even if as you say there had been an announcement that there were going to be gates at Paddington not everyone without a ticket suddenly mobbed the guard by making their situation know at the earliest opportunity (or words to that effect) I suspect he wasn't the only one.

There are certainly queues still at Bristol to pay before the barriers, although I'm unsure whether there are less now that the very welcome new RPO's have been in operation.  ???

Not really an RPI's job to sell tickets! thats what the guard and ATE's are for, their job is to detect and report fare evasion.

And I guess they haven't heard of that 'new' phenomenon called flexible duties?

RPI's do sell tickets where necesary but it isnt their primary function, an RPI is paid more than double the salary of an ATE so if FGW were just wanting more ticket sellers then they would have employed ATE's!

Indeed, but RPIS ought to sell if needed too, but I fully understand ATEs aren't trained or paid to be RPIs

I saw One chap who I Guess was trying it on a few years Back.

Was HST London-Plymouth stopper, Tickets were checked between Reading & Westbury, I thought no more off it but after Westbury Tickets were done again on the "any tickets from Westbury to be seen shout" however the Train Manager asked to see this chap's ticket, (I guess he had a Reading-Westbury one) who then paid for a Full Single Westbury-Castle Cary, however he remained on the train after Castle Cary and was made to Pay for another Full Single Ticket Castle Cary-Taunton.

I reckon that's an EXPENSIVE way to getr around.

Just to add a little to the debate.  As a guard based in the west for some years, I can count on one hand, the number of days I have worked where at least one passenger has not attempted a ticket fraud of some kind.

It is not always possible for a TM, (or conductor on the busiest routes), to cover the entire train in an area where there are frequent stops.  Enter the ATE, who will mop up and generally ensure that revenue is maximised. To a large extent, this discourages fare evasion, but there remains a stubborn core of potential offenders.

The primary function of an RPI is to target and combat ticket irregularities.  Initial processing of suspected offenders is a time consuming business.  Paperwork to complete, address/ID checks and quite possibly a brief interview under caution.  RPIs  are flexible however and do assist when possible, with ticket sales and customer service.

Is there a policy on doing a full ticket check?  On some West of England services when there is a staff change at Exeter or Plymouth the incoming TM does a complete check of all tickets even if they have been done earlier in the journey while on others it is the usual shout of "Passengers joining at Exeter/Newton Abbot/Totnes etc please"...

Old BR instructions that I have seen mandate a complete ticket check every time guards changed en route. I don't know if that instruction still stands, but I can see how on journeys where there are several changes of crew en route guards may choose to exercise some discretion to avoid irritating passengers unduly.

No, there is no 'policy' on ticket checks. The guard decides what is the best use of his time and after a brief handover discussion with the outgoing guard will decide whether a full ticket check is appropriate or whether a 'tickets from xxx' is the best way to go. Believe it or not, if you do a full ticket check people can be very unpleasant if they've already been asked once,twice or more to show their tickets. I know the terms and conditions state you must show your ticket whenever asked but sometimes it's best not to start off a journey with an argument!

rpi's do sell tickets ... after the penalty fair to the next station they can also have a ticket to the destination :-P

Absolutely spot on! 

With experience, it is often possible to separate newly joined pax on a service from those ensconced since PAD or RDG, especially if it is raining.  :D  Body language, drinks and snack cartons at seat, coats on or off etc etc. 

As noddingdonkey says, passengers can be quite anal about ticket checks and if a colleague has already been through the train, there is little point in potentially alienating long distance travellers by carrying out a full check.