Great Western Coffee Shop

I just knew, as it was so warm already, and I had to be in London on time so couldn't miss the 8.34 from Maidenhead.. that the train they would send.. would be an (not not not ) "air conditioned" one..

By the time I got off at Paddington (ten mins late by that point) I felt very very ill and I commute practically every day and don't feel that way usually..

Why do all other trains companies, that I am aware of, manage to run proper length trains with air con that works.. Why can't FGW do the same?

Glastonbury may account for short-forming?

As for heating.....pass!

Btw - I'm sitting in Paddington's 1st class lounge waiting for the sleeper (why does everyone board an hour before leaving? Are they going straight to bed? In this heat?), and yes, you've guessed...... The heating is on, blowing almost full pelt. Maybe thats why theyve boarded? :-)

This train has been short formed for at least a couple of years.. I think (and I know I could check on here as I'm sure it was posted) that the extra carriages were sent somewhere to help trains that couldn't cope with leaves on the line.. I guess that isn't the case now a couple of years later.. But if FGW are going to run short trains.. They needs to give us ones with lots of openinig windows.. please..

Maybe there's an argument that ticket inspectors (Revenue Collection Officers?) sometimes travel on the trains and therefore the carriages should be subjects to HSE requirements regarding "reasonable" working temperatures?  Could be a way of forcing the issue to ensure that maximum temperatures aren't too high.

even with air conditioning working, air conditioning normally cant cope with more than a 5C reduction, with outside temps around 28-29, air con will bring it down to 23-24C which is still uncomfortably hot.
also remember crowded with people wil make it seem warmer than it is, probably taking it back up 2-3C at least

It's an interesting thought but the HSE legislation is very vaguely worded and only applies to "indoor" environments; there is a minimum temperature of 16C defined for environments where work is mainly sedentary, with 13C where physical effort is required. Otherwise everything seems to be couched in terms of making 'reasonable' efforts, leaving aside that I suspect a train would not be defined as an 'indoor' working environment.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/temperature.htm (http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/temperature.htm)

My usual plan with the sleeper is travel up from Reading and board just after 22:30, have a couple of G&Ts and get to bed before the service leaves. I find it easier to nod off while it is still in the platform and thus have a better night's sleep.

But I've been on other train companies trains on very hot days.. And their air conditioning works...I do think the 8.34 definitely needs it's lost carriages back as then there would be less people in each carrigage which would help.. Meanwhile, as I said before...until they do that or assuming they don't...then they need to run a train with opening windows on that service

Many other TOCs have much more modern rolling stock. You have to remember that HST's are around 30 years old and at the end of a normal train working life so failures on all parts of the trains are more likely. Fortunately that is not too often because of the relative simplicity of HSTs compared with modern stock where there is more to go wrong. As far as I am aware the only other FGW trains that had air conditioning at one time is the 166 Turbo fleet that FGW inherited. The air con on 166s was installed very much as an afterthought to the original 165 spec and has never been successful due to the difficulty in servicing the kit.

It wasn't the HSTs I was talking about sadly.. They are a treat if I get to get one of those..As far as I know the air con does work on those.. it was a 166 I was on the other day

I really think FGW should give up on the aircon on the 166's and replace the windows with the ones similar to the 165's at least they get cool when they are on the move and even when stationary in the heat the 165's do not become stifling.  Being in a 166 in the recent heat is akin to locking a pet in a car and leaving the windows shut, you would get locked up for doing that!!!

Let's at least give this new A/C system being installed on the 166's a chance before we sharpen our knives!  As far as I know it's only installed on the one unit at the moment (217 or 218 I think?), but if you believe management rumours it is performing much better than the practically defunct current system.  I am a sceptic about this, but there is a chance that this summer will be the last where 166's are so stiflingly hot!

I'm pretty certain that I've heard Management say there's a delay on the fitting as they aren't completely happy with the trial....

Yes, that's right, but it was a power supply issue leading to the system tripping out I believe, rather than an issue with the actual effectiveness of the system - which is of course the important thing long-term.

Indeed, that was the gist of the conversation - thanks for jogging my cells...

Exactly why I posted.. It made me feel quite ill...

I went round Reading depot in Thames days and teh A/C on teh 166s was the despair of the engineers then. They were even working woth a firm of refrigeration engineers in Reading to try and make it work. I believe the original is Italian built.

One of Chris Green's failures although the rest of the 65 design was pioneering, welded aluminum body etc.

Can we get an answer to Jo's original question - its not just short forming of one particular train - all the trains are short formed and there is no air conditionaing at all.

As Jo says why do other companies manage it and FGW can't.  eg SWT Waterloo-Reading, even late at night, always 8 modern air conditioned carriages.

I know its all down to cash, so why not give the franchise to a company that can afford the investment in new stock - so what if its a foreign company?

Abysmal service, depressing, uncomfortable and dirty trains which cost a fortune to travel on.  Remind me why I want to work in London?

While I'm on a rant (and off topic I know), what numpty decided on the Circle line changes without improving the access to and from platforms 15/16 at Paddington first - its a joke morning and evening

No TOC would invest in that size of fleet, for less than about a 30 year franchise. At at least ^1million a vehicle, you're talking big money.

The GW franchise probably has the oldest fleet out there right now too....the 165 turbos never had aircon, and those 166s which do, are so old that frankly, the aircon is knackered and obsolete.

Not ALL trains are shortformed - what I think you mean are that they could do with extra carriages? Most trains are formed of the number of coaches that they are scheduled to have.

But more coaches on top of new trains too? You want to bid? :-)


Re the circle line, yes, LU were warned - had several meetings about it - but they knew best of course. I just hope there isn't a serious accident though.

It was suggested eleswhere that the EU limit for rail franchises is 21 years and even then only in exceptional circumstances as usually the limit would be 15 years.  Would a TOC invest in a fleet in return for a 21 year franchise?

re short forming- it happens a lot.

About 6 months ago on their web site there seemed to be a lot more ''train xxx is formed of two coaches instead of three'' where as now this isnt the case as much. My train in the evening has gone from three to two and most mornings to. Result in the evening is people getting left behind when Newbury racing is on.

Re the state of the turbos, FGW has ran them long enough so maybe they should look after them better rather than watch them fall apart the 'refreshed' units are going the same way.

Are TOC's expected to return units to a set standard if they stop running a franchise?

That said I think the fitters do a great job and diesel trains will always wear out quicker than electric trains.

Exactly - no train has air con (I'm talking local services not HST)
Exactly what I mean

I do have the answer...  Move house!

That may be simple for some people.. but not for others.. For example if you have children at local schools..

Unless they are in exam year, you can still move house during the summer

..and only have one child? I have three.. that is never going to happen

Our family did it, and I'm one of three kids....twice

Personally I won't move my children out of schools they're doing well/happy at.. But anyway.. Still doesn't explain why most other train companies seem to have got it right.. FGW don't.. Do other train companies have particulalry long franchises so they have time to invest more?

Only chiltern.... And they badly need to renovste their first group of clubmans! Seats are getting very threadbare in places. All sests badly need a deep clean too.

They had a 20 year franchise which stated what had to be bought & when. New EU regs make it hard to offer more than a 15 year franchise, which is what the Coalition is likely to offer going forward.

There will be a limit to the amount that TOCs will be willing to accept if their bids are going to hold up. Also, the recession means bids eon't be as high as previously for the same amount of outlay, but the DfT wants more, not less in way of bids, hence the current rethink on franchises.

We'll just have to see what comes out for the East Coast franchise to get an idea of whats likely to be offered.

In terms of buying (contracting) new stock, the ROSCOs will wsnt guarantees from the DfT that stock will be utilised over the full life of it, not just one franchise - hence why the DfT controls who gets what stock & when

I doubt Maidenhead will see new trains until CrossRail comes in.

And as per Jo - moving just because of short trains isn't exactly reason to disrupt the lifes of 3 children.

And then there are those of us who live in social housing. That's a council house in old money.

Putting "the trains are too short round here" as a reason, on a transfer list request for a new council house in another local authority area, ain't gonna get you far.

I can't even transfer within my local authority area. I've been trying for over 4 years to bag a flat closer to Bristol city centre.....

The comment about moving house was mine and was meant tongue in cheek to a certain extent.  However it does underline the point that the quality (or lack of) of train service from an accepted commuter area would cause one to seriously consider the option.

Regarding the point about most trains being formed with the number of carriages they are scheduled to have - two questions:
1. Why is there now a regularity of 5 carriages instead of 6 - and it is announced on the new CIS so presumably not as scheduled? 
2. Is the 18.12 to HoT now scheduled to have 3 (instead of 5) carriages on a Friday as this appears to be the norm now

Possible answer to 1.....

Two turbo units are away at a time being 'refreshed'.....

Just seen this on FGW Live Updates:  :(

Ouch.....one HST down, or out of place with the Bristol Parkway/Swindon overrun...

The CIS at SWT stations (and probably others as well) always tells you how many carriages are on the next train to depart. I haven't experienced the new FGW CIS yet, but perhaps this is a standard announcement / scrolling display for every departure irrespective of whether it has the right number of carriages.

However that note later disappeared, suggesting that an HST was indeed found/revived to work the service. The FGW CIS announces how many coaches are in the train as a matter of course.

... and another this morning:

06:34 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington due 07:40

    This train will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 7.This is due to a train fault.

    Last Updated: 05/07/2011 06:27

Its the HST that had the fire extinguisher thrown at it?....

I suppose it might be a knock on effect of that but it won't be THE set as the 17:39 from Penzance is 2+8 not 2+7.

Yes, sorry, I meant knock-on from that failure

The main problem lies with the design of the coaches, there should be internal doors to create a better enviroment for the aircon unit. not sure if the chiltern sets have that modification.

Nope.

It wouldn't help anyway - so many people stand in the doorway areas (either due to lack of seating, or simply because they are station hopping), that the doors would never close, either the sensors will keep opening them, or they lean on the buttons.

Happens all the time with the first class section doors.

Did some of the carriages used to have internal doors anyway, I am sure I recall seeing either the door (permanently locked open) or the space for a door in the framework around the opening of some carriages ?

There used to be a glass door on the Class 165's separating what was the enlarged First Class section from Standard Class.  This small section was soon replaced (wisely) with two sets of four seats nearest the First Class compartment which look a bit odd in the context of the rest of the layout.

Aaah! I always wondered why the layout seemed so weird on those! Thank you for the explaination :)

Edit: spooling mistooks.

No, it doesn't. The main problem lies with the design of the air conditioning system, which is why it is being replaced - after almost 20 summers of suffering for passengers. Rather than being an integral part of the original design (like the Class 158), the air conditioning had to be fitted in somehow, when the 166 was created out of the 165 as something of an afterthought. Result, a less than ideal design, with less than ideal performance.

And to add to Willc's post, if you have windows that passengers can open it's doomed to failure no matter how good the system is.

Agree.
I believe that all new or refurbished trains should be equiped with ample opening windows for when the A/C fails, and in the case of electric trains for when the power goes off.
These windows should be secured shut normaly and be only openable by staff with a carriage key or other suitable means.

The 166s were - you can see the square key sockets on the windows.
But the staff were lazy in that they couldn't be bopthered to lock em / unlock 'em - so once unlocked, they stayed that way, and ignorant passengers kept opening the windows on boarding immediately, rather than allowing the aircon to work.

Erm, not strictly true ChrisB.

The 166s were originally fitted with locking handles on the windows, which were secured with a plastic seal in what was ultimately a futile attempt to dissuade passengers from opening the windows except for "emergency ventilation". Lots of these handles have now been yanked out, leaving a square socket that looks like it's for a T-key - a T-key will indeed work in them but that's not how they're supposed to work. I think the allegation of staff laziness is unjustified here.

Since the 166s were designed for DOO, the emergency ventilation windows need to be operable by passengers since there's no conductor with a T-key to walk through and unlock them as there would be on a 158 or similar unit, and in the event of a train failure the driver has bigger fish to fry than wandering through the train opening the windows...

Hmmn - when they were first introduced, those handles were locked shut. I'm sure I remember them being opened...

Also, Chiltern's 165s don't have opening windows & they're DOO....do they? don't *think* so.
The 168s definitely don't, so it's not a required option

inspector_blakey is spot on with his summary there.  Plastic tags were used to disuade people from opening them but were not much of a deterrent (as used again recently with the trial unit - to a similar lack of success).  Handles have always been fitted to them since delivery - there is no secondary locking system that staff can use.  It wasn't a required option, but due to their use on DOO routes, for the reasons blakey describes, the decision was taken when they were manufactured to design them that way - a decision regretted ever since I should imagine.

Lessons were learned, and air-con system reliability and design improved, to an extent that when Chiltern purchased their 168's there were no opening windows.  When Chiltern refurbished their Class 165's about five years ago, and air-con was fitted, all the opening windows were removed.  A shame that FGW's refresh didn't go as far as that with their 165's, and if they don't do anything with the windows on the 166's when the air-con is replaced then all their efforts will be totally futile.  As I've said before, I hope that's not the case!

If they were confident enough that it would work they could replace the handles with a T key opening lock.  Thats what the 158's have and the windows can only be opened by the traincrew

Yes, that might be the best option.  Many drivers would be happy to open/shut them at times during their schedule where time would allow it, and even if not there are very few (if any) 166 diagrams that don't, at some point during the day, run on the non-DOO routes.  Any problems could then be sorted out by the Train Manager.