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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: paul7575 on June 16, 2011, 12:19:54



Title: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: paul7575 on June 16, 2011, 12:19:54
DfT:  http://nds.coi.gov.uk/clientmicrosite/Content/Detail.aspx?ClientId=202&NewsAreaId=2&ReleaseID=419953&SubjectId=36 (http://nds.coi.gov.uk/clientmicrosite/Content/Detail.aspx?ClientId=202&NewsAreaId=2&ReleaseID=419953&SubjectId=36)
So hopefully the planned cascade of 319s for Thames Valley services should happen roughly on time.  I wonder if the delays with most of Bombardier's recent orders have been held against them?

Paul


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: anthony215 on June 16, 2011, 13:54:05
I had my money on Bombardier getting this contract. That said i think some of the problems affecting Bombardier recently (not all their fault mind you) may have had a slight negative affect on thier bid.

I do hope Bombardier get the crossrail contract.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 14, 2013, 11:42:50
And nearly two years on, they've finally managed to raise the money to build the damn things!   :-\   Still, hopefully just in time so that the various electrification programmes can get their cascaded/new units in time?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/thameslink-deal-close-to-completion (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/thameslink-deal-close-to-completion)


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on June 14, 2013, 11:48:46
Be interested in being a fly on the wall at Bombardier right now. Could that be the last straw for them in the UK?


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: paul7575 on June 14, 2013, 11:52:17
Bombardier have had over two years to get used to this decision though.  Despite what the Derby local press have been pushing ever since, the decision was really done and dusted when Siemens were named preferred bidder; and most of the reported total number of job losses would have occurred anyway - they were mainly people working on LU orders which would have ended well before the Thameslink order could start IIRC.

Regarding cascades to other routes, isn't the idea that Southern have ordered various other batches of Electrostars on behalf of DfT to fill in elsewhere?  There's a section about it in the NAO Thameslink report...

Paul


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on June 14, 2013, 12:15:00
I heard somewhere that 319s were heading for the Thames Valley once electrified?


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 14, 2013, 12:19:42
Agreed that Bombardier will have long considered Thameslink as dead for them.  If they don't get Crossrail then that might be the final nail in the coffin though?

Regarding cascades, the original plan was 319s for FGW and up north, and we still aren't clear on what is going to happen, but I can see the 319 fleet all going up north (as electrification has been extended since the original plan), and some/all of the 110mph units Southern are procuring ending up on FGW LTV routes.  Time will tell though, and there's other routes that will need electric trains sooner rather than later such as East-West Rail and Valley Lines, etc...


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on June 14, 2013, 12:24:39
Presumably, the deadline for having new builds ready for the THames Valley is very fast approaching - the same way that the Hitachi buld IEPs needed starting imminently....?

So the longer the process drags on, surely the more likely that the 319s will come to the TV?


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: anthony215 on June 14, 2013, 12:39:34
I wouldnt be too surpised to see some class 319's come to the Thames Valley for use on the branches and Reading - Bassingstoke etc however I think the GW will get some newer stock which can do 110mph.

The Cardiff Valleys were supposed to be getting class 315's however it seems some in the WG are not happy with this and are now pushing for newer units. If Bombardier want work then I am sure perhaps they might be able to do deals.

Hitachi are also likely to be after orders to help justify their train building factory as well.

Something which could help is if Crossrail 2 goes ahead and new rolling stock is ordered for the Piccadily and Bakerloo lines. You also have Merseyrail looking for new stock


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 14, 2013, 13:12:35
Presumably, the deadline for having new builds ready for the THames Valley is very fast approaching - the same way that the Hitachi buld IEPs needed starting imminently....?

So the longer the process drags on, surely the more likely that the 319s will come to the TV?

Well you could argue the case for the North West is even more pressing, given that most of it is due to be completed before the Thames Valley scheme.  TPE are already borrowing a Class 350 from LM for driver training ahead of the first section being energised at the end of the year.

We had a bit of a discussion a couple of months ago towards the end of this thread: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12168.30 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12168.30)

'Network SouthEast' pointed out that the Southern procurement http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/procurement-of-new-rolling-stock/ (http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/procurement-of-new-rolling-stock/) for up to 216 vehicles (54 four car sets?) would fit the bill for the FGW LTV services very nicely, and it seems strange to specify 110mph trains unless they were eventually intended for the GW route?  My money would be on those units ending up forming the LTV fleet post-electrification, and whilst I'm not sure how far along that procurement they are, the fact that it started last years means a 2016 deadline should be quite easily met.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: eightf48544 on June 14, 2013, 14:24:00
It will be very intersting if LTV get the new Southern units at the start of the elctrification and then have them replaced by 378 style Crossrail cattle trucks later. Maidonians aren't going to be too happy!


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: Network SouthEast on June 14, 2013, 14:45:07
There may still be LTV services stopping at Maidenhead even when Crossrail starts.

The Crossrail website (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/#.UbsddPnEp4w) says:

Quote
When it opens in 2018, Crossrail will provide ten trains per hour on the Great Western main line at peak. This will include four trains per hour to Maidenhead, four trains per hour to Heathrow and two trains per hour to West Drayton.

Other operators^ services are assumed to be:

2 trains per hour from Reading calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes & Harlington and Ealing Broadway to Paddington;
2 trains per hour from Reading calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Taplow, Burnham and terminating at Slough;
1 through train from Henley on Thames to Paddington; and
1 through train from Bourne End to Paddington


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on June 14, 2013, 14:49:05
Interesting the last two aren't also quoted as being "per hour"...I wonder if the residents on those routes are aware?


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: eightf48544 on June 14, 2013, 15:05:28
They are becoming aware, expect to hear a lot from the branches in the next few years.

I take 1 through train to mean just that per day, interesting it doesn't say both ways!


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on June 14, 2013, 15:16:25
I read it as both ways.....


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: Network SouthEast on June 14, 2013, 15:20:39
Was an all-day service to Henley and Bourne End ever proposed then? I don't recall reading anything anywhere.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: paul7575 on June 14, 2013, 15:34:13
Peak only through service, same as now isn't it?  I don't think anyone will notice the difference, reducing from  two to one (Henley) is only a 50% cut...

Paul


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on June 14, 2013, 15:40:09
one train per day each way, and won't notice?


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: anthony215 on June 14, 2013, 16:58:10
An issue if the GW gets these units that Southern are procuring on behalf of the DFT if they are 4 carriages long is that they will not be able to fit on the Thames Valley branches unless they are reduced to three carriage sets.

If the Western link to Heathrow is built perhaps though two trains per hour which terminate at Slough can run to Heathrow rather than terminate @ Slough.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: grahame on June 14, 2013, 16:58:58
one train per day each way, and won't notice?

It doesn't say "each way" Chris ...

We were stung by that one in the last franchise round ... "2 trains from Westbury to Swindon" it said in the specification and that's exactly what was provided ... nothing going from Swindon to Westbury at all on a Sunday for the first year ...



Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on June 14, 2013, 17:22:59
But that's a quote from the Crossrail website, and not even about Crossrail trains.

Hardly anything like a franchise spec?.....


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: Network SouthEast on June 14, 2013, 17:37:29
An issue if the GW gets these units that Southern are procuring on behalf of the DFT if they are 4 carriages long is that they will not be able to fit on the Thames Valley branches unless they are reduced to three carriage sets.

New EMUs orders are expected to have Selective Door Operation, so a 4 car unit on a route with 3 car platforms won't be an issue.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: anthony215 on June 14, 2013, 17:49:56
An issue if the GW gets these units that Southern are procuring on behalf of the DFT if they are 4 carriages long is that they will not be able to fit on the Thames Valley branches unless they are reduced to three carriage sets.

New EMUs orders are expected to have Selective Door Operation, so a 4 car unit on a route with 3 car platforms won't be an issue.

Yes but you cannot fit a 4 carriage unit into the Marlow platform @ Bourne end for example and  can a 4 carriage unit fit into the bay platform at Twyford?


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: Network SouthEast on June 14, 2013, 18:04:53
Network Rail's plans for CP5 include platform extensions as well as changes to signalling and other working arragements where necessary. I suspect the end of the ground frame at Bourne End is in sight.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: paul7575 on June 14, 2013, 19:05:48
one train per day each way, and won't notice?

It doesn't say "each way" Chris ...

We were stung by that one in the last franchise round ... "2 trains from Westbury to Swindon" it said in the specification and that's exactly what was provided ... nothing going from Swindon to Westbury at all on a Sunday for the first year ..


It's implied for the hourly services shown though, unless there's no balancing Paddington to Reading stopping services?

Paul


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 28, 2014, 23:12:31
From the Cabinet Office press release (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-state-of-the-art-passenger-train-unveiled?):

Quote
New state-of-the-art passenger train unveiled

A new electric Class 700 train is set to improve the travel experience for passengers and boost the economy.

The state-of-the-art train that will transform rail travel into and across London, boost the economy and generate thousands of jobs throughout the UK was unveiled by Rail Minister Stephen Hammond today (28 January 2014).

The government^s ^6.5 billion Thameslink programme will create up to 8,000 jobs as part of the deal to build 1,140 carriages and to complete the wider infrastructure work required.

The new electric Class 700 train will offer a much improved travel experience for passengers and alongside the wider infrastructure work will boost capacity and reliability across one of Europe^s busiest stretches of railway. Benefits in the morning peak will include:
- over double the number of carriages, providing 80% more peak seats across central London (between Blackfriars and St Pancras)
- the number of carriages serving the capital to jump by 40%; longer, more frequent services with 30% more seats on all Thameslink north services that run fast from St Albans to London
- 15% more seats from stations along the line from Peterborough and Cambridge and more than 60% more carriages into London Bridge

Speaking at the unveiling of a full-scale mock-up of the train at London^s ExCeL Centre today (28 January 2014), Rail Minister Stephen Hammond, said: We are transforming our railways through the biggest programme of rail investment ever. These exciting new trains, combined with the wider Thameslink programme are a real boost to UK Plc, creating thousands of jobs in construction and across the supply chain, which is driving forward our economy.

Once operational they will provide a huge benefit to the hundreds of thousands of passengers who travel into London every day. It will vastly improve train travel providing fast, reliable and more frequent services.

The trains have been designed specifically to meet the demands of the ambitious Thameslink infrastructure programme delivering high frequency, high capacity services. They will be more reliable and more energy efficient than existing rolling stock and their lightweight design will mean less wear and tear on the tracks, saving money in maintaining the network over the long term.

Train manufacturer Siemens expects the contract to build the 1,140 carriages to create up to 2,000 jobs across the UK supply chain in component manufacturing, assembly, construction of new depots and subsequent train maintenance.

A further 3,000 people are expected to be directly employed as part of the wider Thameslink infrastructure works with as many again employed in related jobs in the wider community.

Steve Scrimshaw, Managing Director, Siemens Rail Systems UK, said: Over ^80 million pounds has been invested by Siemens in the design and development of the Class 700. The innovative design incorporates the feedback of UK train operators, train crew, cleaners and maintainers, as well as dedicated passenger research, helping us turn proven technology and expertise into a state-of-the-art train of the future.

First Capital Connect operates the current Thameslink franchise and has worked closely with the government to develop the new trains.

Managing Director David Statham said: This new fleet will give passengers more trains, more carriages and more capacity which our passengers desperately need.

The Thameslink programme will deliver more than double the number of carriages across the heart of London. At London Bridge alone the programme will deliver 60% more carriages in the morning rush hour. There^ll also be exciting new journey opportunities from places along the route from Cambridge and Peterborough across the Thames to Blackfriars and beyond.

Cross London Trains, a consortium comprising of Siemens Project Ventures GMbH, Innisfree Limited and 3i infrastructure plc, is financing the new trains and will lease them to the operator of the Thameslink franchise.

Andy Pitt, Executive Chairman of Cross London Trains, said: Cross London Trains is delighted to have provided the finance for these Class 700 trains which will provide significant benefits to passengers and a step change in capacity.

The first new train will begin operating in early 2016 with the remaining fleet following at an increasing rate until there is one new train entering passenger service every week.

They will run on the current Thameslink network between Bedford and Brighton and the Wimbledon Loop and will be deployed across new routes from 2017 as infrastructure work is completed. These include the Great Northern routes to Cambridge and Peterborough, the route to Sevenoaks via Elephant and Castle and new destinations off the Brighton Main Line.

From 2018 the trains will operate at high frequencies across central London with one arriving every 2 to 3 minutes between St Pancras and Blackfriars during the peak. The new London Bridge main line station will also be completed by 2018, providing capacity for more cross-London services, including the extension of Great Northern services southward from King^s Cross. The new trains will be maintained at new depots being built in Hornsey (London Borough of Haringey) and Three Bridges (West Sussex).

In addition, the new generation of trains will release existing rolling stock for use elsewhere on the network, particularly as further routes are electrified, for example in the north west of England and the Thames Valley commuter lines.

Thameslink sits within a wider context of multi-billion pound investment in the country^s transport network. It will provide for improved north/south journeys across the capital, supporting access to London Bridge as well as Luton and Gatwick airports. A new interchange at Farringdon will also give Thameslink passengers access to Crossrail for east/west journeys, including Heathrow Airport, Canary Wharf and the West End.

The first stage of the Thameslink programme is now operationally complete. Final touches are being made to building work at Farringdon and Blackfriars stations, and platform extension work has been completed at a number of locations including Luton Airport Parkway and St Albans. This first stage has allowed some longer 12-carriage trains to operate on the Bedford to Brighton route. The platforms at Blackfriars station have also been extended across the Thames, making it the first station to span the width of the river.

The second stage is now under way and involves the reconstruction of London Bridge station and a new connection to the East Coast Main Line just to the north of St Pancras station.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: anthony215 on January 29, 2014, 03:54:37
I have seen some photos posted online showing the interior of these new units and they do actually look pretty good.

I wouldnt mind units like these on Crossrail or other GW local services on routes which are electrified. Now to see what Bombardier or Hitachi come up with for Crossrail or for this rumoured GW order


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: Southern Stag on January 29, 2014, 10:20:43
It's probably going to be pretty similar to the stock for Crossrail. It won't be the same of course because Siemens pulled out of the bidding for the contract last year.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: eightf48544 on January 29, 2014, 11:42:28
I presumme the 700s are noraml seating are they 2 by 2 or 2 by 3? With TFL the main sponsors of Crossrail we'll be lucky to get any 2 by 2 or 2 by 3 seating it will be all 378, S stock longitudinal seating and no loos.

That's why Chiltern are now busier than ever between Amersham and Harrow


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on January 29, 2014, 11:51:01
THe interesting piece from the Cabinet Office above includes -

Quote
In addition, the new generation of trains will release existing rolling stock for use elsewhere on the network, particularly as further routes are electrified, for example in the north west of England and the Thames Valley commuter lines.

So, first confirmation direct from Government that refurbed (hopefully!) 319s will be used in the Thames Valley.....

Better those than these new 700s. Look closely at the pics (plenty from Paul Bigland here (http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p114786410)) and you'll see 2x2 in both Standard & First (1st get tables). Look very much like quite hard basic seats to me - wouldn't want to do Bedford-Brighton on one!.

Off to see the same set this afternoon at the public viewing (Excel, Prince Regent station, 1400-2000) & will report back


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 29, 2014, 14:51:02
From the St Albans & Harpenden Review (http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/10970913._/?):

Quote
Thameslink makes Harpenden spelling error to 'Harpenthen' as electric Class 700 train unveiled at Excel Centre

(http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/resources/images/2841046.jpg?type=articleLandscape)
Thameslink makes ^Harpenthen^ spelling error as new train unveiled

While the Government unveiled a new Thameslink train, which will run on the line from 2016 yesterday, tongues were set wagging when it was noticed Harpenden was spelled incorrectly.

During the unveiling of the mock-up of the new state-of-the-art electric Class 700 train, which is to offer more frequent services to St Albans, it appeared Harpenden had been spelled ^Harpenthen^ on the train map.

The typo could not be changed in time for the grand unveiling at the Excel Centre.

Roger Perkins for First Capital Connect said: "This mock-up of the exciting new Thameslink train was shipped over from Germany where it was created. The passenger information screen is just a mock-up of the real thing and its manufacturers were unable to correct the typo in time for the grand unveiling."

The Government said its ^6.5 billion Thameslink programme would provide more frequent services from St Albans and 30 per cent more seats because of a 50 per cent increase in carriages.

On the Thameslink north services Midland Mainline fast trains that run between St Albans and London, over the full three hour AM peak the number of services will increase from 18 to 24. While the Midland Mainline slow train will see services increase from 17 to 24 over the full 3 hour peak.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: onthecushions on January 29, 2014, 23:59:53

Probably correct phonetically for a German speaker.

Just imagine what the Japanese will make of Western names when IEP mock-ups arrive!

OTC


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: grahame on January 30, 2014, 04:26:07
Just imagine what the Japanese will make of Western names when IEP mock-ups arrive!


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: Southern Stag on January 30, 2014, 09:07:50
I presumme the 700s are noraml seating are they 2 by 2 or 2 by 3? With TFL the main sponsors of Crossrail we'll be lucky to get any 2 by 2 or 2 by 3 seating it will be all 378, S stock longitudinal seating and no loos.

That's why Chiltern are now busier than ever between Amersham and Harrow
The 700s have all 2+2 seating. I'm sure Crossrail seating has been discussed before, from the indicative seating capacity of the Crossrail units it is simply not possible for them to have all longitudinal seating, it just wouldn't mean enough seats to meet the requirements. Chiltern being busier between Amersham and Harrow has more to do with the new Metropolitan line timetable which removes fast services Off-Peak than the new stock.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: paul7575 on January 30, 2014, 09:27:16
Crossrail is specified as 450 seats per 10 car, 200m train.  An average of 45 seats per car, but a slightly lower number in the two end cars and significantly less in the DDA vehicles, of which I believe there are at least two.

So a 'normal' Crossrail carriage should probably have nearly 50 seats.  To fit 50 seats and have increased stand back areas around doors requires a majority of 2+2 seating.  For comparison 378s average 36 seats per car - this must include the 'perch seats' by the doors from what I've seen.

Suggesting Crossrail will be just like 378s doesn't stand up to scrutiny, I'm afraid.

Paul


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on January 30, 2014, 11:06:05
2+2, with a small area of 2+1 in one coach to provide even more standing area (read bike space off-peak)

Frankly, the trains are built for the short commute. Woe behold anyone wanting Peterborough/Cambridge/Bedford to Gatwick, for example. You will get a very numb bum.

Like the Met S-stock, definitely NOT built for 60+ min commutes....but for the central London part of the route.

When I can find time, I'll pr^cis the hand-out given to me yesterday - you had to ask as they were removed from the public time.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 30, 2014, 16:00:06
THe interesting piece from the Cabinet Office above includes -

Quote
In addition, the new generation of trains will release existing rolling stock for use elsewhere on the network, particularly as further routes are electrified, for example in the north west of England and the Thames Valley commuter lines.

So, first confirmation direct from Government that refurbed (hopefully!) 319s will be used in the Thames Valley.....

Is it though?  There are Class 377s that will be released, not just Class 319s.  I reckon that 319s will go up north and you may well see Class 377s cascaded to the GWML.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on January 30, 2014, 16:06:10
that's true. Do we know roughly how many of each there are currently?

Possibly able to work out which as FGW won't want to maintain both unless they absolutely have to....


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: paul7575 on January 30, 2014, 16:18:31
There are exact numbers of what has to be released, and when (at least in terms of pure numbers of AC, DC or dual voltage stock), in table 5.4.3 on page 76 in the TSGN franchise ITT.   There is also a planned transfer of 25 x 4 car EMUs from the combined franchise to Southeastern.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/245041/invitation-to-tender.pdf

The plans include the release of the class 387 trains (29 units/116 vehicles) that are only recently ordered and are known to be with Thameslink for only a short time, possibly around 2 years, these have  early cascade planned.  Reading between the lines in various other stuff such as RUSs, and because they are 110 mph capable, I think it more likely that they will come to FGW, and the 319s will all go up north.

There is also an option for another 30 or more four car 387s.

NB I think the 387s were generally referred to as '377/8's before the ITT was published - I think they are probably the same trains as the '377's mentioned by IndustryInsider above.

Paul


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on January 30, 2014, 16:29:58
I didn't think that the 387s were going to be ready in time to come to the GW after electrification?


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: paul7575 on January 30, 2014, 17:43:47
I didn't think that the 387s were going to be ready in time to come to the GW after electrification?

Some will be available by the end of 2016 - I suppose it depends on whether we should expect enough EMUs of a single type to be available to the GW routes to work the entire relevant timetable from day 1, or if there will be some sort of DMU/EMU transition over a couple of years...

They may also yet order more 387s to be used on the GW from new of course...

Paul


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on January 30, 2014, 17:49:34
I don't expect an immediate switch-over - more a move over to EMU as whole routes become available, such as PAD-RDG. Although FGW could decide to wait until say, the whole TV area is complete.

What they won't want, I'm sure is a mixture of EMUs - they'll want all one variety - whether 319s, 377s or 387s


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: John R on January 30, 2014, 20:09:15
I didn't think that the 387s were going to be ready in time to come to the GW after electrification?
I believe the 387's will be available in 2015, so I don't see the 2016 date being an issue, unless it's the delivery of the Class 700s which is the constraining factor.

With regard to the Thameslink stock, I thought I read somewhere that there will be two internal configurations, effectively metro and outer suburban?


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on January 31, 2014, 09:54:27
definitely not, according to the staff at the event. All the same, either 8car or 12car fixed formation.

So adding a car when the 8cars need start to need them isn't going to be easy.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: Network SouthEast on January 31, 2014, 10:05:38
Chris, I am curious as to why you think adding extra cars to the 8 car class 700s is going to be hard? Siemens make a song and dance that the Desiro City (which this train is) that it can be reconfigured as part of their "single car concept". Secondly, the DfT said in their techincal spec for Thameslink that the 8 cars must be able to be upgraded to 12 cars.

Meanwhile there are quite a few photos from a user of the Flickr site of the internal mock-up (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/sets/72157640284156676/). In another album there are also photos of the seating plan (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/sets/72157634388543187/).


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: ChrisB on January 31, 2014, 10:59:47
Because the staff (and I spoke to more than one Siemans/Thameslink rep) said so.


Title: Re: Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order
Post by: paul7575 on January 31, 2014, 12:19:08
With regard to the Thameslink stock, I thought I read somewhere that there will be two internal configurations, effectively metro and outer suburban?

Your recollection is probably correct as there were three train configurations required in the original train technical spec published at ITT back in 2008, there was to be an inner and outer suburban version of the 8 car or 'reduced length unit', IIRC the former just didn't have first class.  All the 12 cars were the same, so I then assumed they were all outer configuration.   

Quote from: DfT in ITT
A feature of the TRSP is the concept of fixed configuration Units of nominally 240m and 160m lengths with variances within the 160m Units for inner and outer suburban internal configurations.

That appears to have been changed somewhere along the line, and the only difference now is the length of the train.

Regarding the possibility of extending the 8 car trains later in their life, this is definitely mentioned in the various ITT documents - perhaps though, now that the DfT have done a bit of a U-turn on the expected routes, they recognise that it will not be expected, because there are now enough routes for Thameslink trains where the stock is limited by the infrastructure, e.g. the Wimbledon/Sutton loop.

(I haven't linked to the source documents because I can't find them now online, but I've checked in downloaded copies I've retained...)

Paul



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