Great Western Coffee Shop

Following on from some points raised by willc in another thread (see here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=9070.msg93078#msg93078)) I thought I'd start a new thread about the problems of fare dodging. Often seen as a victimless crime with the perpetrators coming from all walks of life. Many see it as a risk worth taking and I have some theories as to why - which I posted on another rail forum some time ago.

It's called human nature. One of our species' evolutionary traits is the desire to get as many resources as possible for as little effort/cost as possible. We often make subconscious decisions on how we obtain those resources. If we can get away with obtaining them at reduced effort/cost, we often will. For the benefit of society as a whole we put in checks and balances (rules and laws) to counteract this individualist evolutionary trait.

When presented with opportunities to get 'something for nothing' our evolutionary hard-wiring often overcomes society's rules and our own moral objection to others behaving in this way. We are therefore happy to exploit lax rule enforcement. If the punishment for getting caught is not seen as too harsh then more people will justify to themselves that it is okay to risk it; this concious decision is underpinned by a strong subconscious evolutionary advantage to the individuals who take said risk. They have saved some of their own resources at the expense of someone else's.

So if there is an opportunity to board a train without a ticket when one was available to purchase beforehand, some people will take it. Balancing the likelihood of facing some form of punishment for this against the likelihood of getting 'something for nothing' will inform the individuals decision. Previous experience (intelligence) and fellow passengers experience (extelligence) also help in making the decision whether to pay or not. Once on board a passenger is far more likely to sit tight in the hope of getting their journey at no cost than to seek out the guard and pay.

There are slightly different evolutionary traits at work when it comes to deliberately intending not to pay. I've not read that bit of Darwin yet!!

Most people are totally oblivious of the serious consequences a conviction for ticketless travel can have. Be it a byelaw conviction or prosecution under the Regulation of Railway Act - many talk themselves into a RRA prosecution ('intent' has to be proved) by trying to talk themselves out of it! Byelaw or RRA, both give you a criminal record.

Finally, I'll add that I have a conviction for ticketless travel. Not something I'm proud of. It happened 8 years ago and I've never not bought a ticket since - when I've had an opportunity to do so. Even when I've got to a destination and had no opportunity to buy beforehand.

I will be honest and admit I sometimes do travel for free, however it is not down to trying to avoid it but not having the opportunity to purchase a ticket. If asked to purchase a ticket I will more than happily purchase it since I am using a the service. However I do not see why I should inconvenience myself and purchase a ticket whilt waiting for a connection for example as I did this once and was made to feel as if I purpousley tried to avoid purchasing a ticket. This attitutude from staff surely does not help passangers who wish to ber fair and honest in regards to paying for travel.

On a side note given how fares keep rising, I do know people that will try to travel for free every so often to make up for ridiculously high fares so they see it as fair. Is this right though morally as they do pay what they view as extortionate fares usually but try to get something back in return?

no, it certainly isn't.

Where else do you decide what price to pay for any product? Why is this any different?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honest (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honest)

Well fare dodging is wrong, but many people myslef included do not see it as THAT wrong.  It is certainly in the minor offenses category. 

I would have my sympathy for the TOCs if their own behaviour wrt to ticketing wasn't so complex and dishonest as to be boardering on fraud at times. 

Theft is NOT a minor offence.

It's a commercial product, not a right - to travel.

Do you drive off without paying for a tank of fuel? THis is NO different. You have no additional rights to train travel as to a tank of fuel.

You DO have a choice. EIther pay the asking price or don't travel. Period.

Interesting last point there ChrisB. What if there is no opportunity to pay? Don't travel?

Here's an example. You do a journey from Stapleton Road to Montpelier. Both unmanned stations with no full TVM (Montpelier has a basic ticket machine but it only offers tickets to Bristol Temple Meads). The guard doesn't get round to you before Montpelier. How do you pay for your journey then? And because you couldn't, should you not have travelled in the first place?

The industry needs to do a lot more to prevent unintentional ticket-less travel. It's not good enough to just say "Either pay the asking price or don't travel."

I now do my damnedest to ensure I have a valid ticket for the trains I am on, but there are occasions when, through the inadequacies of the railways, I have either travelled free (unmanned, un-TVMed station both ends, no opportunity on board) or got to a destination (manned but unbarriered) where I could get away without paying. In that second scenario I would always go to the ticket office. If there was only a TVM at my destination I would still travel free. Can't buy a ticket from my origin station at a destination TVM.

Ticket-less travel does cost the industry millions, but a fair proportion of that is down to the railways own inadequacies.

A criminal record is a criminal record. Minor offence or not. Can affect job prospects, foreign travel opportunities, ability to obtain insurance......

I've travelled for free on a number of occassions.  All SVB line journeys with no way of paying the fare.  Most times, I've paid a full return on my way home.  But on single journeys, for the sake of 75p, I'm not going to go out of my way to make payment.

In my short stint at an insurance company, I had a phone call from a policyholder who had just been convicted of "travelling or attempting to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof".  At renewal, his policy had to be referred to an underwriter.  I don't know quite how much the price increased by, but I remember it was a similar amount to the loading imposed on people convicted of fraud by false representation.

no, of course not. But where you can pay, you ought to pay. Again, period.


I was referring to the post above mine.


If you want a return, it doesn't usually matter if you buy the ticket the wrong way around - the fare, outside London, is usually the same in either direction - or it certainly ought to be! you could buy a single the wrong way round too, if you wwere totally honest....

Must confess I have often wondered, and even wondered aloud on here long ago I do believe, whether the millions lost through ticketless travel isn't actually a lot more than the money that could have been spent on having properly manned stations or at least ticket halls and barriers throughout the network.

But then I haven't bought a valid ticket for my journey!  :P

Can't say for definite that the 'reverse' journey is exactly the same. Fare may be different. Restrictions may be different.

No, if the railways have been unable or unwilling to provide facilities for the sale of the correct ticket then I don't see it as my responsibility to purchase an incorrect product just to appear 'honest'.

I've said before - I'll go out of my way to try my damnedest to buy the correct ticket(s). If I can't, I won't.

whats your point. hes tried to pay.


Theft CAN be a minor offense. shoplifting, a type of theft usually only gets a caution.
Saying travel is a commercial product is your opinion, not a fact. You could say food is a commercial product, but im sure you wouldn't do without it.

Just to blur the edges somewhat (and hopefully diffuse what shows every sign of turning into a heated debate - play nicely please chaps!), where does the panel stand on this?

Someone I know just confessed to having travelled ticketless today. He fare dodged, in other words.

He is in fact in possession of a railcard and up to date season ticket valid for that route - a journey of an hour or so with one change - but he left it at home and was running late so today he decided to "wing it". And he got away with it.

Obviously I informed him this was Wrong and Stupid but in point of fact - where does he actually stand? If required by a court of law to produce a valid ticket for the journey he could actually have done so; but not on the train itself, as on this one occasion he didn't actually have one with him. And yet he HAS paid, so morally is he in the right?

In that particular scenario, the requirement to produce a ticket or other valid authority to travel has to be done at the time requested. Whether you are able to later produce tickets etc in court* would be neither here nor there in the eyes of the law. The offence has already been committed and with a byelaw prosecution for ticket-less travel being 'strict liability' there is very little wriggle room.

Law doesn't really do "morally he was in the right" as a defence. Particularly with 'strict liability' offences.

*It may be possible to forestall prosecution in this scenario by settling out of court. Showing contrition to the TOC, apologising and paying the fare for the journey on which you were caught along with a sum to cover the TOCs costs. That is entirely at the TOCs discretion though and they don't have to accept a settlement.

There is an easier solution:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm)

And, while we're at it:
http://www.eng-lang.co.uk/apostrophe_rules.htm (http://www.eng-lang.co.uk/apostrophe_rules.htm)
http://www.grammar-monster.com/lessons/capital_letters_start_sentences.htm (http://www.grammar-monster.com/lessons/capital_letters_start_sentences.htm)

I think the TOC ought to settle out of court if you were sufficiently contrite.

You are entitled to a refund on a ticket bought to cover a forgotten season. Twice ib a year, I believe. So if you were to do as abive, you could then spply for a refund assuming you haven't claimed too often.

I can't see a TOC wanting to bother with the red tape, as long as you were sufficiently contrite.

How does it inconvenience you? Surely it just gives you something to do whilst waiting for another train..

Fair point Ollie, although I confess I would smile wryly if Matt743 were to respond that he's a wheelchair-bound passenger making a connection at Chippenham Station...

I never said it wasn't a crime.  I never said it wasn't morally wrong.  I never said that it ought not to happen.  I didn't offer an excuse to those who do it.

I do repeat however, that in the great scheme of things it is a relatively minor matter and we do need to keep a sense of perspective.  There are plenty of railway crime that I can get very worked up about and which I think should be punished very harshly.  Abusing staff or nicking live cable for example are far far worse things to do, "forgetting" to pay a fare just isn't one of them. 

To my mind this http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8995.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8995.0) is an example of a sense of prespective being lost.

What amazes me about this topic is the variation in the train crew's attitude. Last Sunday on the Falmouth branch in the down direction the Conductor was correctly issuing tickets to the intermediate travellers by even holding up the train and issuing tickets on the platform as some got off at Penryn and Penmere.

On the return the Conductor only got out of the rear cab to open and shut the doors. Four passengers alighted at Perranwell and were amazed they travelled for free. Possibly the Conductor had a failed ticket machine. But it is very noticeable that it is Sunday for some reason that it is often difficult to get a ticket. It just goes to show how inaccurate the passenger statistics must be especially from intermediate stations now Truro has barriers. I once counted eight passengers who got on at Penryn and got off at Falmouth Town and the Conductor never left the rear cab to collect fares.

I agree FarWestJohn.

I'd go so far to say that ticket revenue could be improved just as much by better ticket checks on trains as all the punative measures taken against fare dodgers.

there is a variation in train crew attotude to be sure, but I wouldn't want crew to get all the blame for that.  It suggests to be that they are all too often improperly managed.

This is a very good point.  But perhaps if the lost revenue is less than the cost of enforcement, the penalties should be increased.

London Underground have a ^50 minimum penalty fare.  Something in this region with regular enforcement would also act as a better deterrent.

More regular revenue protection checks wouldn't go amiss.  All you need is to see another passenger being given a "fine" (and I don't think ^20 is high enough to call it a fine), then it is unlikely you'll chance it on that route again.

I think ATOC is hassling the DfT for an increase to the same as TfL....

Belittling me isn't an argument. And you seem to have still understood it, so it worked as communication.



I think ^50 pounds isn't actually that much either, I accept it is if the distance is fairly short, like from Clifton to Temple Meeds, but if your traveling to London that's probably cheaper than the actual fare in most case, whereas ^50 in Greater London is way more expensive than ticket you can get.

Good point, what annoys me most is when the capital investment has been made in TVM and barriers etc and then they are not staffed.

That's a penalty fare only (so, that would be a *minimum* - twice the full single fare would soon be the penalty on the way to London!) - and on top you have to pay to complete your journey!

As an example, someone travelling from Bristol Temple Meads to London at super off-peak times, who gets "caught" before Reading would be charged as follows:
Penalty Fare from BRI to RDG: ^118.00
Fare from RDG to PAD: ^19.50
Total ^137.50, compared to ^28.00

This is probably already enough of a penalty.  However, I wouldn't expect there is a huge amount of intercity fare evasion.  My point about increasing the ^20 to ^50 is to deal with local journeys where fare evasion is rife and fares typically quite low.

The inconvenience is the tough tight connection times that if I had to queue to purchase a ticket then I would miss my connection. Then there is the problem that certain staff refuse to believe you were not trying to wing it and have every intention to pay. Many times I've travelled between Filton Abbey Wood and Swansea without having the opportunity of purchasing a ticket without potentially missing connections and then upon reaching Swansea, the only way to purchase a ticket is to pass the barrier, queue then miss a connecting bus service which runs infregquently. However if I do have a large amount of time between connections then I do purchase a ticket as I have plenty of time and it avoids hassle. Though this is not always possible.

Book online & pick the ticket up at any enabled TVM you pass en-route?

ToD is fine if you know that you will definitely make the journey

More often than not this is what I do but sometimes I need to travel at short notice and as asuch this is not always an option. As I have stated I try to purchase a ticket when I can and nearly always do however the system does not seem to make it easy for on the day travel. The large amount of money taken from my account by FGW should prove that. Personally I feel that ticket checks should be more regular to increase opportunities for genuine passangers to purchase tickets instead of being made to feel like a criminal if you do not. Even though its not my fault I feel bad and worried if I do not have a ticket when nearing my destination, especially when you get the inevitable 100 questions as to why no ticket has been purchased. If I was truly trying to avoid paying fares then there are many unmanned stations I could choose to get off at.

So why not walk to the guard? Even if his ticket machine is on the fritz, you should still be able to get an unpaid fare notice to confirm where you boarded.

What? You don't know until less than two hours before travelling that you're making a trip?.....that must be a rarity!! You can book any ticket on the day online that you can get from the TVM / ticketr office / guard.


Sorry, I'm a BIG fan of having to purchase where available *before* getting on the train - you should only be able to buy full price tickets from the guard unless facilities for doing so aren't present at the station of boarding. Those are the current rules & I agree. Otherwise, it just encourages people to try & get away without buying!

Looking at the last FGW internal vacancy list it appears that more RPI's are being taken on in the Bristol area (there are none in that area at the moment!), I very often see the RPI's about issuing Penalty Fares in Devon and Cornwall, and as such you hardly sell a ticket these days from previous hot spots such as Teignmouth and Digby.

Bet doing blocks at Torre in the morning is fun...

This has been done a few times this year by the Exeter RPI's.

It definitely got as far as a DfT consultation around year end 2009/10 - the proposition was as per the TfL scheme, but although that's actually ^50 it's reduced to ^25 if paid before some deadline or other.  A bit like most local authority parking penalties.  

However  that consultation seems to have closed and then died - which is strange.  Change of government related perhaps?

If penalty fares were 'regulated', and had been increased in line with the RPI+ rules each year, I wonder where they'd be now?  ???

Paul

By holding up do you mean delaying it? If so I don't approve of this action. Losing a few quid in local fares is much better than the delay minutes FGW would have to pay..

Caught the 2245 Taunton to Bristol Temple Meads last night. Very disappointed that there was no ticket check on the entire journey.

No more than 15 passengers on board at any point on the journey. Whilst it's possible that the folks I saw boarding and alighting at all stations en route already held valid tickets, it's equally possible that they hadn't purchased tickets.

With the amount of assaults on that line due to ticket issues (mostly Bridgwater and Highbridge) I dont blame the conductor for staying in their cab at that time of the evening!

Sometimes I only wish to use cash as its part of my personal budgeting and paying cash is not available at Filton which if it was then I would purchase before boarding. This is not mine nor anyone elses fault if the facilities are not available. And I live in a student house without internet connection during term time so purchasing in advance is only an option when I'm in uni using their computers.  If I know when I have to travel I do book in advance however I do regularly have to travel at short notice to return home to provide relief for my mother who cares for my autistic brother. If I'm onest I would prefer a ticket office to be installed permanently at Filton so that this problem for myself and others no longer exists about purchasing tickets

Booking on line and collecting tickets from a vending machine sounds fine in theory, but in practice does not allways work reliably or at all.
Possibly acceptable for a long journey planned in advance, but it is bit OTT for a local trip to the shops ! Book on line for a local bus journey no way ! so why should it be expected for a local train journey either.

Why on earth should you say that? A rail ticket is a rail ticket, surely?

Does it matter whether its for ^1.50 or ^111.50?

Theft is in practice a minor offence, still an offence undoubtably but not a major one unless a great deal of money or monies worth is stolen.

Lots of people DO drive off without paying for a tank of fuel, and filling station operators regularly complain that this sort of theft is not taken seriously.
Stealing from shops is likewise in practice a minor offence, owners of shops regularly complain that this type of stealing is not taken seriously.

I never deliberatly set out to travell without a ticket.
If however there is no open ticket office or functioning ticket machine, no checks en route or on arrival, then I dont go so far as to write and send them a cheque !

I think that's a very fair point.

Although, now that FGW don't actually accept cheques, I might change my mind on that one in future!

I always try my darned hardest to buy tickets before boarding a train. But there are situations where that simply isn't possible. For example, Frome station doesn't have a ticket office open all day nor a TVM.

If I set off to London from there, I board the train and seek out the conductor and ask for a ticket.

There have been situations where my travel plans have had to change at very short notice. i.e. when i'm actually on the train, and I may have to travel further. Generally I seek out the conductor and ask for a ticket. I would even go as far as to approach an RPI and ask for an excess ticket. Which I have done before and as I approached them in good faith, I was sold the excess I was after.

But if I board a train at Unstaffed/No TVM aka Bruton for example and I travel to Bath Spa. If I can't get a ticket on the train, I will buy a ticket from the Gateline on arrival or the ticket office if the barriers are unmanned. But if both the former and latter are unavailable (such as when the last train of the day leaves) I wouldn't buy a ticket from a TVM because you can't specify the origin station. Nor would I phone them up to pay. I've done my bit by seeking out the conductor on the train. If they can't do their bit to provide a method for me to purchase the correct ticket i need(ed) for my journey, then that's their problem as far as i'm concerned.

As an aside. I travelled on a bus last week with my friend. I have a bus pass, my friend doesn't. It turned out the ticket machine wasn't working so the driver couldn't issue us any tickets. He just said to everyone "take a seat". They didn't ask us for names and addresses to write to us to demand payment at a later day (although I suppose they could have). Either way the driver took the bus with about 30 pax 12 miles free of charge. I think the same priniciple applies to the railways. If (in this case the bus company) cannot provide us with a method to buy the correct tickets, then we should still be able to travel regardless as it is a public service. It's not our fault the machine was broken, that's their fault for not maintaining it properly. I for one would have been pretty pi$$ed to be told we couldn't travel because the ticket machine was broken.

I'm going to stop there before I step on a landmine :-X

Bus drivers can't account for money taken if machine isn't working - so its better to let pax travel for free than potentially tempt their staff into pilfering' they have no way of issuing manual tickets

Train managers still, i believe have paper ticket wallets? So they can issue written ticket & therefore account for money taken. As long as they do their job, they should aleays be able to issue ticket on request.

Correct me if I'm wromg about tjose ticket books

In the recent past I've seen a bus driver (FirstBus in Somerset) issuing manual tickets from a booklet after his Wayfarer machine died. Two part tear off tickets with tick boxes and a stub filled out by the driver. He had a fare stage sheet as well. He was only issuing singles and returns with this booklet. Those asking for multi-journey tickets were told to purchase on their next bus - I guess because it wasn't possible to issue a manual 'Day' ticket.

I did note that he was keeping a record of 'Day' ticket requests and Concessionary Pass users.

I would disagree with that. I have been in a fair number of incidents when I have asked to buy a ticket from a Guard, and been told they can't sell me one because their Avantix has packed up!

Maybe an FGW Staff member can comment on the paper ticket wallets?!

Ok, happy to learn that FGW (all TOCs?) have hiven these up...

Any staff care to comment?

I believe they are still in issue somewhere (as I saw a passenger with a paper ticket last month). 

There is, however, an issue of calculating the fare (much easier on buses than trains).  Is it worth the conductor and control staff's time to phone through to control to find out the fare when it is only a few pounds?

I guess the fare books are no longer carried either then?

Well ive been working for FGW for 13 years and we have never had paper tickets in that time.  So the answer is no we dont have paper tickets any more.  We can issue an UFN but to do that we need an advantix to get the ticket price.

The paper tickets referred to are known as excess pads, they are no longer issued but I believe there are one or two old school RPI's in the east that still have them and they are still valid.

On the 1903 Bristol Temple Meads to Severn Beach tonight and the conductor's Avantix wasn't working.

On leaving Temple Meads he made an announcement saying he would be unable to sell tickets. He also later apologised again approaching Clifton Down, finishing his message with, "so anyone without a ticket - it's your lucky day, enjoy your weekend!"

Prior to this two lads had boarded at Stapleton Road and I heard one say, "We're only going to Clifton. If the guard comes round, I'll say to him, 'sh*t, I've forgot my wallet'. Worst he can do is chuck us off at Montpelier."

Your classic fare dodgers! So, feeling devilish, I wound them up by saying, "Lads, the guard's machine is broken so you might be okay, but I've heard that an Inspector may be boarding at Redland."  ;D

They bailed at Montpelier.

 ;D  ;D  ;D 

And how much was the fare they were dodging? Less than a fiver?

SRD to CFN single is ^1.50 :-\

ScotRail sleeper hosts still use excess pads for any walk up passengers but these days they are only really useful if you know the fares as copies of the NFM are no longer kept on board.

last time I went on SR sleepers the other day the sleeper host had an avantix!

Very impressed this morning with the Torbay 'school train' (0745 Teignmouth - Torre). Impressed to see that everybody had a ticket - most with season tickets, was under the impression that the Torquay Grammar lot were a bunch of fare dodgers  :D

RPI didn't have much to do!

How d'ya know they all had tickets? did you check?

Mind if I ask where you were travelling from / to?

I watched them each show a ticket to the RPI who seemed suitably happy with what they showed them, so I count that as having tickets  ;)

Obviously I could only see into the front carriage...

I bet if you'd have been on the later train  you'd have seen a different picture! The 7.50 from Exd is the one!

Torquay Grammar School is a state school. Therefore pupils travelling to school by train would have a season ticket paid for by the local authority unless they are pupils from out of the catchment area whose parents have chosen to choose this school rather than a local one offered to them by the LA.

The majority of those children from Starcross,Dawlish and Teignmouth who attend Torquay Grammar do not have their season ticket paid for them, if indeed they have one at all. Many parents obviously give their children their fares on a daily basis but some children do everything in their power to avoid having to spend it!

Yep, that sounds like most kids.

I used to be given ^1.50 a day for my return bus fare to my school (I was just inside the catchment that would've allowed free travel) and would often walk to and from school so I saved the ^1.50 to spend in the tuck shop at break time. Mum eventually cottoned on and hence with walked me to the bus stop on her way to work. I was clever though (for a given value of 'clever' - being 11) and only bought a single (^1) thus still having 50p for a cream doughnut and a bag of crisps! Had to walk home though.... when I didn't blag the return bus fare.....

Is that true in both England and Wales now?
Certainly wasn't the case in Wales when I was in school (only a few years ago).
Those who lived further than a certain distancea away (I think it was about 2 miles) had the option of the free school bus, but for those of us who lived just within the limit it was either walk (45/50 minutes in the belting down rain? No thanks) or get the train (^1 return if the guard came around - the stations are unmanned and have no ticket buying facilities).

That's you are IN the catchmernt area, which you obviously were.

If you live close to the school - nothing, then another catchment area where you get a bus pass (don't know if they do train travel!), then outside of this area i.e. too far away, you get nothing.

At least that's how I understand it.

Torquay Grammar is selective so it's ultimately the parents choice to live miles and miles away from a school. Since the school is selective they don't take kids on based on location to school, instead Academics etc.

My school was selective (the local rival to Torquay Grammar  ;)) and we had people travelling from miles. I knew somebody who walked to a bus stop, caught a bus to Dartmouth, got a ferry, then finally another bus to school. They had to pay too!

As it happens I was about half a mile outside the free bus pass catchment area.

Yup.
Inside three miles; nothing
Beyond three miles but within catchment - free bus or train (if no bus) travel
Outside catchment - nothing

Meanwhile, welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, WelshBluebird!  ;) :D ;D

I used to work in the Devon County Council education department at one time (though not school transport) and can confirm that the policy was for children over 3 miles to get free school transport to their catchment school or the nearest school with an available place if none was available at the catchment school (e.g. if they moved in term time). Torquay Grammar School wouldn't qualify on either ground for children from Devon as it's a selective school. So children/their parents from Starcross-Newton Abbot stations would be paying for transport. I don't know how Torquay BC arrange their travel system though.

So pretty similar then (although I think the actual distance is different in Wales, and last I heard people were starting to get rail passes to get to the school). I bet the services around the time school starts / finishes are a nightmare for staff!


Cheers. Been nosing around for a while :).

Maybe they could introduce top-up cards or something and you'd have to scan your card to get on the train? Until they do something though people will fare dodge/ board the train hoping a conductor won't do his job

It's called Oyster.

I've been following this thread for awhile and to summarise ther seem to be two schools of thought.

One is that you should always pay your fare even if the TOC makes it impossible by not providing any facilities before on or after your journey.

The other is that provided you intend to pay the fare when the oportunity is provided if the TOC concerned cannot be bothered to provide such an oportunity then it's OK to travel free.

Both agree deliberate fare dodging is wrong.

My view is that although the TOCS make an enormous fuss about the huge sum of money lost to fare dodgers there is a cynical bean counter somewhere who has calculated that the cost of collecting this lost money would be far greater than the money actually collected.

Mc ulty in his porosals has endoresed trhis view as he wants a general man power reduction on the railway. More lost revenue!

i have traveled a few times on the train without a ticket now, but this is because of the fact that the station where i live is not always open, if this is the case i will get on the train and wait for the guard on the train to do ticket checks and then i will buy a ticket if nobody comes along and does the ticket checks then i buy the ticket from the guards or the ticket office at the destination station.

Oyster cards only exist for people in the South East/ London area, how about a FGW card or even beter a national public transport card? Although I am against it on civil liberty grounds it ld be a way of guaranteeing income?

A national transport card to ITSO standards does exist. The problem has been that until the readers were made both ITSO and Oyster compliant it couldn't be rolled out in on Networkrail in Greater London.

Hasn't SWT got an ITSO product?

Yes, SWT has had ITSO format seasons for a while now, but only on routes which are outside London, because DfT/TfL have not made the infrastructure inside the London zones compatible yet.


However, AIUI they don't intend to provide Oyster style PAYG functionality on 'Stagecoach Smart' as it is known.

Paul