Great Western Coffee Shop

A community mural in Gloucester Station , commissioned by First Great Western , has been unveiled (links below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/7067133.stm

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/NewsItem.aspx?id=562

It seems that they had problems at Gloucester this afternoon with both the 16.31 Cheltenham to Paddington and the 14.51 Great Malvern to Weymouth being delayed by 20 to 30 minutes.  As a result of this both are missing stops, with the former running fast from Swindon to Paddington and the latter ran non-stop from Temple Meads to Westbury.  Is this a sensible decision to minimise disruption to other services or a cynical ploy to reach the destination within 10 minutes of booked time and thereby avoid financial penalties?

Sensible considering there is a Paddington train from Swindon at 1759 calling Didcot & Reading.

And don't forget that the set will turn round at Paddington to form a Friday evening down service - which I imagine would be very busy. Turnround times at Paddington are tight in the evening peak, so much better to get the set into Paddington in good time to turn round, without serious disruption to the Friday evening peak service and without delaying the down service.

From thisisGloucestershire (http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/gloucester/Subway-cuts-slammed/article-2402699-detail/article.html):

http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/news/rips-station-office/article-3054091-detail/article.html

some interesting reader comments at the bottom of the article

From thisisgloucestershire (http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/news/late-night-train-cancelled-drunken-Jordan-Clews-set-ticket-office-Gloucester-train-station/article-3428553-detail/article.html):

I cant believe that they can try and use his drinking as a defence! seems that justice has been done to an extent, they should make him pay back all of the money for the damage, even if it means him paying a tenner a week for the rest of his life.

I'd like to see him pay back that ^322,000 over the course of his lifetime.

At ^10 a week that would take approximately 619 years.  ;D

maybe, but he would still have paid some of it back.

I am tempted to say he got off 'lightly' , wouldn't you ?

I think he got off lightly.  This was not just an offense against property but endangered people's lives.  It was an ocupied building, buit some empty derilict place.

As I'm not familiar with the lingo, is a "two-year detention and training order" basically what most people would call borstal?

A two year DTO will see the offender spend half the sentence in a Young Offenders Institution and half spent in the community under the supervision of a Youth Offending Team.

The community part of the sentence requires the offender to attend up to twice weekly meetings with their YOT Officer. Additional criteria may be added to the community part of the sentence, such as unpaid work ('Community Payback') or a requirement to attend education or vocational training. A curfew with electronic tagging may also be imposed.

From thisisgloucestershire (http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/news/Platforms-station-163-500-000-upgrade/article-3466013-detail/article.html):

Well, it's almost done now.  New alumium and glass modular waiting rooms on Platforms 2 and  4 with fixed individual seats ... they are fine ...but oh dear what a monumental waste of money on the canopy linking the half mile walk between PLatforms 1 and 2 . Just a curvy roof, no sides and no use whatsoever if anything more than Beaufort Force 2 is blowing. Ticket office not yet finishead and new CIS still in their wrappings.

To be pedantic, the long platform is actually 0.3740655 miles long!

( 602m according to Wikipedia )

From FGW JourneyCheck:

An update, from FGW JourneyCheck:

From the Gloucester Citizen (http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Scary-subway-daubed-graffiti-spruce/story-15761889-detail/story.html):

Unusual use of the word "decimated" .....

Indeed. That's quite some vandalism if they've actually manage to remove or destroy a large percentage of the suibway.  ::)

In Roman times, it was every 10th soldier. Have they destroyed every 10th subway?

Another sad story - whichever set of details you choose to believe.

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/story-18001649-detail/story.html?


http://www.wiltsglosstandard.co.uk/news/10193910._/?

From talking to staff at Swindon this morning the first version seems to be the correct one.

From the British Transport Police press release (http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Media-Releases/Can-you-help-identify-man-BTP-wants-to-speak-to-after-assault-at-Gloucester-210f.aspx):




Edit note: Images now removed due to expiry of copyright permission. CfN

4M36  Cardiff Wentloog - Daventry has derailed on the Up through at Gloucester Station.  All lines around the station are currently blocked.  The avoiding lines are still available.

Description of the incident;

"20:24 Gloucester signaller called to advise he has multiple track circuit failures in Gloucester Station and West End. He is unable to give any further updates at the moment as he is putting out an emergency call o the surrounding trains. 20:25 Block put on with Bristol PSB and Midland TRC for all traffic booked to pass through Gloucester. 20:27 Gloucester signaller has now advised he thinks 4M36 may have derailed in the station. TRC has been asked to put a block on both ends of the station. 20:30 Block put on with Cardiff TRC 20:30 ISC has left messages for on call S&T. P-Way have also been contacted, they are calling back with an ETA. 20:31 UM118, RC, RD (Keynes Xing) RE (Over LC) RF RG (at 735 points) RH RK RL RN RP. All on the up. Driver is examinging train. 20:37 MC appointed ARM 20:35."

This will no doubt overflow into tomorrow mornings start up at Gloucester with displaced stock etc.

Apparently one wagon is resting against London Road bridge.

Apparently the rear wagon lost its container and rear wheelset some 1 mile to the rear of where the train came to a halt.

1 mile of track has been damaged and structures are being checked.

RAIB are on site.

Standby road replacement buses have been ordered for the morning for both Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa.

According to Network Rail, following the damage caused to infrastructure, the line between Gloucester and Lydney is likely to remain closed for up to a week.

CrossCountry services between Nottingham and Cardiff are being terminated/started at Gloucester. Passengers for South Wales are being told to travel with CrossCountry to Bristol Parkway and change onto FGW services there. Reverse applies for journeys from South Wales to Cheltenham Spa and beyond.

Arriva Trains Wales services between Maesteg/Cardiff and Cheltenham Spa are terminating/starting at Lydney. Replacement road transport, running hourly, will operate between Lydney and Cheltenham Spa calling at Gloucester.

First Great Western services calling at Gloucester continue to operate, although they may be subject to delay/alteration due to reduced capacity at Gloucester station.

Arriva Trains Wales and First Great Western are accepting CrossCountry tickets via any reasonable route until further notice.

Freight that would normally travel via Lydney is being diverted through the Severn Tunnel.

Let's hope there are no problems in the tunnel over the next few days.

This might have a knock on effect with other planned engineering work this weekend as London to South Wales services are due to operate via Gloucester.

That's going to be an awful lot of delay minutes. Is that all going to be charged to the organisation responsible for the derailment when that is known?

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-24549694):

How did it lose a container so badly it needed a police helicopter to search for it? Its not like its a small object that will get lost in the overgrowth!

Coz the train continued some distance before coming to a halt in the dark.

It appears that the location of the container that made a break for freedom was somewhat fortuitous, coming to rest at a point where the infrastructure was able to, er, contain it. And seeing the logo on the side you could say, because of that, that "Every Little Helps."  ;D

And Rentagob Crow should put a sock in it. It's the RAIB's job to find the cause and make recommendations, not his.

Interesting i'm due to go through Gloucester to/from Cardiff Saturday might be interesting.

Suspended until Monday, according to National Rail Enquiries (NRE - is that in the Glossaty? :-))

Weekend Engineering Work cancelled so South Wales trains will go via Severn Tunnel

A sensible move otherwise they might have had HST diversions up to Birmingham/ Shrewsbury and down the Heart of Wales line to Swansea !

Wonder whether they are going to retime or will we hang around Newport on the way out and Swindon on the way back, maybe I'll make the earlier train at Reading but miss my pint.

No need to go quite that far. There's Worcester, then Hereford to Newport via Abergavenny on the Welsh Marches Line. With a few FGW HST drivers who sign Cheltenham to Worcester and Hereford to Newport.  ;)

Network Rail have cancelled engineering work this weekend so that services can travel through the Severn Tunnel.

The line between Lydney and Gloucester is likely to be closed for a few days. I bet there is going to be some disruption trying to get everything through the Severn Tunnel especially since now other train can travel through the tunnel while the Roberston - Westerleigh tanks are traveling through.

Even the police helicopter got called out last night to search for the missing container which has ended up on a road.

Not been a good week for container trains has it.

I too thought this but after viewing the freight schedule for the next couple of days, we are only talking an extra freight approximately every 90mins on average in each direction through daytime hours.  A bit more late evening and overnight but with reduced passenger services by this time it shouldn't cause too much of a problem.

Assuming that you actually meant to refer to our 'acronyms and abbreviations (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/acronyms.html)' page, ChrisB - yes, it is:


 ;)

The trains will run to a special Timetable which should resemble the normal Timetable and which should resume the following week.    There is nothing in National Rail Journey Planner - still shewn via Gloucester.
Surely you wouldn't expect them to block up Platforms at Newport and Swindon for an hour.  Replacement trains  will run between Gloucester and Swindon and vice versa..

There seems to be a bit of confusion regarding the weekend engineering work.  As of 5pm the plan seems to have changed again and to go ahead with the closure of the Severn Tunnel.

Just looked now and, for example, there is a 12:15 service from Paddington on Saturday to Bristol Temple Meads via Bristol Parkway with a bus connection from Parkway to Newport and then a train followed by a 12:45 departure from Paddington calling at Kemble, Stroud, Stonehouse, Gloucester, Severn Tunnel Junction and usual calls in South Wales.

The BBC have updated their coverage of the incident, including a video news report that was included on BBC Points West this evening (16/10/2013).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-24559634

From the video it's now apparent that the container seen in earlier photographs on the London Road bridge in Gloucester was not the one that derailed. it was another wagon behind this one (looks like the last one of the consist) that somehow lost both its wheelsets and dumped its container on the permanent way. Also from the video, its now more apparent as to why the copper chopper was called out.

Network Rail will do well to have the line reopened in time to allow the scheduled maintenance to take place between Bristol Parkway and Severn Tunnel Junction. I'm fairly confident that a Plan B will be available if NR can't open the Gloucester- Newport line in time for the 0200 Sat 19/10/2013 possession of the Severn Tunnel.

Chris B, is has apparently been un-cancelled and is back on, and Network Rail have been issued a deadline of 0200 to have this route reopened on Saturday morning.

What happens if they don't reopen by 02:00 Saturday? Do they close the Severn Tunnel and presumably run buses from Parkway to Newport?

Hardly makes it worth my while going do you think I could get a refund or change my tickets (advanced) free of charge?

If the line via Gloucester is not ready then there is a possibility that the start of engineering works ould be pushed back to start later or be cancelled altogether and replanned for another weekend

I wonder what the state of play will be at 0200 on Saturday.    Any major job takes as long as it takes.

National Rail Enquiries are saying that full repairs to the line between Gloucester and Lydney are due to be completed on Friday night.

If that is so then the planned possession of the Severn Tunnel will go ahead from 0200 on Saturday morning and services that use the tunnel will be diverted via Lydney as originally planned.

Looks like I may get to Cardiff on Saturday when I expected to.

FGW could have been more forthcoming by keeping people up-dated on their Website.
After posting that the Severn Tunnel Engineering Work had been cancelled, they just removed it instead of saying so and given an explanation.   FGW Journey Check still talks of a decision to be made re the Weekend.      This situation has caused much confusion among potential passengers and others who have just been left up in the air.

I agree the website has been less than forthcoming.  Mind you they still haven't mentioned the franchise award yet which you would have thought was worthy of inclusion.

Sadly not for the first time either.

Yes you would have thought they would want to blow their trumpet a bit about this.

Indeed eightf.

The most recent update from FGW at 1618 today read:


However, do note that caveat in the final sentence.

---

EDIT: And re-reading my post and the quoted text (sic). Does anyone know where Tunnels One to Six are?  ::)

The line between Gloucester and Lydney reopened shortly after 3 this morning. However there is a speed restriction over a six mile section for trains heading north towards Gloucester.

The first up Swansea service of the day has run via Gloucester and Kemble.

Thanks for the update Bobm looks like i may get there.

Pedant.  :P ;) ;D

Were wud we be if peeple did'nt analey point owt miner typo's?

Back to the matter in hand. Well done to Network Rail for getting the line between Gloucester and Lydney reopened so swiftly after what was, by all accounts, some significant damage.

Well got through to Cardiff OK. Interesting looked out from Gloucester to Lydney at UP line and didn't see any evidence of dmageAlthough there was a copound with a lot of equipement in part way along.

Perhaps the damage wsn't as bad as first thought anyrate well done Network Rail for reopening teh line and letting me have my day in Cardiff,

From the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/131015_gloucester.cfm):

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-24676617):


Actually, what the Rail Accident Investigation Branch have published is not their report - they've simply set out the basis of their ongoing investigation.  ::)

Based on RAIB's previous form the report should be due in about 11 months time.

Hmm. :-\

To be fair to the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB), and as explained by Richard Harrington in his excellent talk to the West Wiltshire Rail Users Group meeting in Trowbridge on 25 September 2013 (discussed here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12746.0)), the RAIB do try to publish all of their reports within one year of the occurrence of the incident being investigated.

However, if there were any injuries or fatalities, this often causes the final publication of their report to be delayed whilst all parties involved are consulted, and where necessary counselled, about their findings.  In the case of any incident where nobody was injured, the RAIB reports are generally published within just a few months of that incident.

Further to Chris' comments, Richard also explained that the industry gets to know the results of the investigation much earlier, so that any lessons can start to be implemented.  I'd also say that a reading of many of the investigations demonstrates the forensic nature of the investigation and the diligence with which the RAIB conduct their work. I'd rather a thorough report that took a year to reach the public domain than a slapdash one that took half the time.

From the Western Daily Press (http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/City-s-railway-station-pound-2m-makeover/story-20688516-detail/story.html):

If you are unfortunate to arrive at Platform 1 in Gloucester, your first impression is that you got off the train too early.  It is a very long walk to Platform 2 and the exit.  Perhaps a narrow gauge track could be laid on along the platform.  ::)

Nice archive picture in that WDP article. That footbridge has gone, as has the TOC who's logo is on the sign.

I passed through Gloucester today and also noticed that the canopy beyond the new overbridge on Platform 4 has been removed. Whether for repair, replacement or permanent removal I know not.

From the Gloucester Citizen (http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Gloucester-railway-station-letting-city-needs/story-21457568-detail/story.html):

From the Gloucester Citizen (http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Wrong-time-Gloucester-Train-Station-parking/story-22752824-detail/story.html?):


I've done a little editing to correct a glaring spelling error in this articles headline. Currently on the Gloucester Citizen website it reads: "Wrong time on Gloucester Train Station parking metres put commuters at risk of fines".  ::)

Isn't Gloucester time 7 minutes behind London time?  It was the GWR that put an end to that, but perhaps the news didn't make it off the platform.

Doesn't seem a major issue.  If the parking is for 24 hours like at Swindon 7 minutes is not going to affect many people. And once they noticed it they seem to have allowed the extra 7 minutes.

So what is the problem?

Ah forgot - Its August and there is no real local news in Gloucester

I'm more concerned about signs mentioning clamping along with charges for breaching the car park terms and conditions. If the car park is operated under Railway Byelaws then clamping is permitted in some limited circumstances. If APCoA are issuing Parking Charge Notices using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 then clamping is illegal.

Seems like they are trying to have their cake and eat it.

Also I wouldn't trust any Private Parking Company not to issue PCNs after a user has encountered a faulty machine. I've read of cases where charges have been pursued to the steps of court even when it has been acknowledged that a machine wasn't working correctly. A clock that is 7 minutes slow could easily lead to PCN being issued. It takes the flimsiest of reasons for these companies to issue PCNs. They are, after all, a large income stream from folk stupid enough to pay up without a fight.

As I understand Clamping is illegal on private land regardless of PCNs being issued or not.

Clamping/towing is not illegal on land in England and Wales where there is statutory control and Byelaws. Such as airports, ports, harbours and railway land, including the car parks. In these places the Byelaws must include the right to clamp and/or tow. This does not apply in Scotland, where removal of vehicles can only be lawfully carried out under the direction of the police.

Railway Byelaw 14 covers clamping and towing on railway land.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf#page=12

I too share BNM's concerns on the timing of the machines resulting in tickets being issued.

PPCs are no better at customer services than Civil Recovery Firms, Debt Collection Agencies and the likes. Sad but true.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with ellendune's comment on 7 minutes for several reasons and bitter personal experience.

Trains do tend to have this awful ability to run behind scheduled times. So 7 minutes could make a huge difference. Whilst I don't know the setup at GCR. If the carpark is controlled by ANPR Cameras. It doesn't matter if it's 7 minutes or 70 minutes over. You'd get a ticket in the post automatically.

Considering that 7 minutes is the minimum time to change trains at Bath Spa, Using an expression (Nothing at all personal ellendune, and apologies if it looks otherwise, it's me being pedantic) "not affecting many people" is an attitude that makes my blood start to boil.

A while back Somerset County Council pulled the funding for rural bus services in the East Somerset Area. We lost several services completely, had one slashed by 50% frequency and so on. The argument from the council being "It won't affect many people who will have other transport choices" - Well I am one of those many who it does affect.

What I am trying to explain is the principle is the same. I believe I have told this story before on the forum regarding a PPC at a Supermarket. Where I was doing Christmas Food Shopping with a friend. We arrived by car, had lunch in the cafe, did the shopping and it took forever to go through the checkouts because the store were short staffed. Once shopping was loaded into the car, I returned to the store to use the toilets before leaving. The time I took in the toilets and returning to the car, which my friend by this time had moved to the pickup point, caused us to go over the maximum stay limit by a few minutes. She received a lovely invoice in the post from an ANPR device on the exit of the car.

Needless to say I dealt with the matter on her behalf and made it clear in no uncertain terms that no payment or offer of payment was ever going to be made. Letters exchanged back and fourth and the PPC offered to waive the charge as a "Gesture of Goodwill" if I could prove my medical condition caused the overstay. They received a copy of the results of a [was then] recent medical examination which makes very grim reading and included photographs from the investigations as well... :-\

If a PPC is going to threaten a friend with court action, home visits from collection agencies, for something that was in no way her fault, then I will make them suffer. I finished the letter with the following line:

"Enjoy you lunch"

Whilst going down the POPLA route may have been the better option using the classic "does not represent a pre-estimated loss to the organisation" and for the time overstayed the vehicle was in a pickup point waiting to pick up a passenger so was not occupying a space. May have been the better and more mature option, But I sometimes feel that if a company is going to try borderline immoral practices to gain money, then the "customer" also has the right to play a rough ball game...

---

Finally, Clamping on private land is I believe unlawful. There are very, very few cases where this is not the case. But for a private car park violation then clamping is almost certainly unlawful. Put it this way, If I had a car and came back to it at 1AM to find it clamped over an overstay in the carpark, I would make no hesitation to taking an angle grinder to the clamp. Or getting a friend to tow the car and remove the clamp by taking off the wheel in a vehicle repair station. I know people who have done the former and the latter when they've been clamped illegally.

Another case a friend removed the clamp, took it over 200 miles away to another vehicle repair station and wrote to the "clampers" telling them where they could collect their clamps in person.

I should also point out that I am not in any way a legally qualified professional and anything said above is considered E&OE and should be taken as such. Think that just about absolves me :o

At Swindon the parking tickets from the machine are all up to midnight. If that is the case at Gloucester then not many people would be around at midnight.  If it is otherwise then more people would be affected.

You can legally remove the clamp yourself as long as you don't cause damage to the clamp, and leave it where it can reasonably be collected by the clamping firm.
They are fairly easy to remove without causing damage, plenty of guides can be found on internet search engines. If you damage the clamp, you can be pursued for criminal damage, and if you don't leave it behind you can be done for theft.
If you remove it yourself the fee is not applicable, as the fee charged for clamping is normally called a removal fee. A charge for them to remove the clamp.

From FGW JourneyCheck:



From the Gloucester Citizen (http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Station-closed-person-hit-train-Gloucester/story-22966844-detail/story.html):


A bad day in our region. This incident follows the double fatality earlier at Slough. Thoughts, as always, to those involved, especially the drivers.

This incident at Gloucester station has now been deemed non-suspicious by the BTP.

Gloucester station has now reopened as at 1301. Knock on delays, diversions and cancellations may still occur.

The RAIB has now released its report into this incident.

Full report can be downloaded at: http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2014/report202014.cfm

Just read the report, I definitely know a lot more about 'cyclic top' now...   

Interesting that they seem to be writing off 'steel sleepers' due to the difficult of maintaining track level with manual tools or 'stone blowers', and they suggest they were the wrong choice for this secondary line in the first place, because although secondary as a passenger line no-one seems to have thought of the freight traffic.

Another part of the analysis concerns the suspension performance of the container wagons when empty or lightly loaded - they and their testing and certification come in for a fair amount of criticism.

Paul

The YouTube video from which the stills were taken on Page 45 can be found here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4ntnt4DL60&list=TLW9k3I4Qf2zna7LqcyuZNlApThV-hz8IE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4ntnt4DL60&list=TLW9k3I4Qf2zna7LqcyuZNlApThV-hz8IE)

Scary stuff

Note the comments under the video.  "the track was safe to run at that speed , as a BR Tracklayer i have a lot worse and at faster speeds."  ::)

Paul

The 83 page report has relatively little to say about the train continuing its progress for four miles following derailment, until the signaller concluded that the growing list of track circuit failures (and a point detection failure) warranted stopping the train for examination.

The report refers to a couple of European standards bodies/committees and their analysis of wagon derailment monitoring equipment, which apparently concluded that

Now these things are difficult to quantify. The conclusions may well be justified if spending that money elsewhere could prodice a safer railway.

However, beware of "black swans" - things that happen in defiance of conventional risk analysis. Beware also of creeping changes in practice that cause risks to grow and have contributed to some of the major rail incidents of modern times.

This particular derailment was a consequence of dodgy track on a secondary route, but some other type of derailment causing four miles of damage with possible running foul of adjacent lines...platforms...on a busy route could be a lot worse in impact - and even without injuries, closing the line for several days.

I don't particularly wish to lead a demand for ever-more safery paraphernalia. But as the eyes and ears that may detect such derailments are removed from trains...signalboxes...stations...crossings...I don't wish us to sleep-walk into another version of Newton, Hatfield or Southall.

One of the toughest, most highly technical, RAIB reports I've read. Hard work.

However, having met an RAIB Investigator, and hearing first hand how they go about the job, I fully understand the need to cover all aspects of an incident, no matter how small or inconsequential those aspects may appear. Or how deeply technical the investigation has to be.

It's worth noting that in this particular incident if the wagon had derailed to the right, and there was a another train passing on the down line, the consequences of this cyclic top phenomenon could have been far worse.

I thought it did derail to the right.

Yes., sorry. I meant to say further to the right. The leading wheelset of the final bogie stayed on the rails until it encountered the second check rail near Gloucester, until this point the trailing wheelset stayed roughly in line with the tracks.

Agree completely.

A technical question. In the days when Eurostar used to operate out of Waterloo, there used to be a bit of track just out of Waterloo where the train always ended up bouncing. Was that down to cyclic top - or something else?

Once upon a time I lived near Paris and a near neighbour was BR's commissioning engineer for the Eurostar trains. I recall talking to him one evening over a glass of wine (as one does) about the articulation used in the TGVs and the Eurostars and this may explain the effect you noticed. The linkage between the coaches is such that the coach ends can hinge (for curves) and twist relative to each each other but not pitch. This means that the whole train rises and falls together on its suspension. For reasons I can't remember this meant that dampers were not needed across the primary suspension which as a result could be excited into resonance at certain speeds. (As an aside the lack of these dampers is one of the reasons for the silky smooth ride of the TGVs). From memory these speeds were near 40mph and 60mph, which could happen quite frequently in south London on the the route out of Waterloo, but was not such a problem in France where trains got going more smartly! To avoid too much discomfort little white stickers were attached to the speedometers as a reminder to the drivers to avoid these speeds.

Could this correspond with the effect you noticed?

From the Gloucester Citizen (http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Derelict-land-provide-220-new-car-parking-spaces/story-28964029-detail/story.html):

Really? I went to Reading from platform 1 today, I prefer it due to the waiting room that has heating in.

http://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/train-crash-near-gloucester-station-causing-long-delays-while-investigation-on-going/story-30056676-detail/story.html


150938 and 150265 involved,

If I'm not mistaken 150938 is the hybrid formed from the unit involved in the Plymouth collision last year?

Correct.  A vehicle from 150219

Was becoming off topic in the FTFB thread so moved here.

I was also told that Gloucester would go to West Midlands signalling centre rather than Didcot.

Apparently they considered bidirectional signalling at Cheltenham but decided against. Apparently at Gloucester platform 1 is not long enough for the nine cars even, but it is possible to move signals back on platform 2 and 1.

I would like to see the reverse time improvements because it promotes more trains to call at Gloucester. I have also noticed decreased use of Platform 1 recently with only Great Malverns using the platform. Use of platform 3 more would be great but rail travel is more focused towards Cheltenham now. It’s used under 8 times a day which is unfortunate.

I did post in the F4T topic that there are some big NR boundary changes being planned that will put Gloucester and Cheltenham into the Midlands Territory.  TVSC is full and cannot accomodate any more territory without major building works (hence the talked about plan for Exeter Panel to become a ROC). I also think that NR are begining to realise that putting 'all your eggs in one basket' is asking for trouble if something serious was to happen.

Anyway, we need to wait and see once the CP6 plans are firmed up.

I Think the best and cheapest way to resignal Gloucester would be to convert the panel box into a ROC or small I.E.C.C. This would be more practical as the Horton Road crossing poses safety issues, with people as I was told by platform staff, jumping over barriers. So it needs a person high up in a building to oversee it. The work station in there could contain only 4 monitors and could be placed across the back wall. Then the panel would be ripped out and a nice desk housing all of the monitors for the crossings. I also can see that there is a large relay room underneath it which could house most of the control boxes and probably save on REB Cabinets.

Really not sure a person up in the box would make much difference!


But then all the old stuff would have to be ripped out before the new stuff can be installed.  That would be a very long blockade!

Platform 1, is used through the week but does not seem to be used on Saturdays.

Are you thinking then NR are wishing they had not built large signalling centres.

Yes.

Why, They are reliable and seem to work, the one TVSC As featured on Tv was a busy one. I suppose the signallers get fed when news comes from route control that someone is trying to comit suiside or trespassers.

According to the Strategic Plan published earlier this year, the CP6 resignalling schemes for Worcester, Gloucester and Cornwall have been deferred until CP7/8.

See page 65 of this document:  https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Western-Route-Strategic-Plan.pdf

If the original plan was to have the whole Western route covered by TVSC, how come it isn't large enough?

Sounds like bad planning.

I don't think it was the original plan to have all the Western Route controlled from there - by which I mean the plan when it was built - that is why it is only called the Thames Valley Signalling Centre.  Then the plan changed and I thought they were planning to extend the building - always a tricky thing when it is a live installation.  So I guess they have now realised that and have scaled back their aspirations to match the capacity of the building. 

I think there's a difference between what was initially planned - as in going to be done within the foreseeable and plannable future - and what was always intended as the final result. There are maps with the NR routes  (their management regions, one of which is "Western"), identified one to one with ROCs (excepting some historical anomalies). But the Western Route Plan of 2013 said:

That's signalling, but an ROC also holds the ECR (electric power), NR route, and TOC operations control functions. I suspect that these have ended up employing more people than was foreseen. And of course that "planned" may have assumed that if more space was needed 30 years later than some could be built.

And has someone wearing a "resilience" hat come along to NR's planners of control strategy and asked what the backup arrangements are - e.g. if a major fire puts an ROC out of action for months, how and to where will control of all functions be transferred to be operational the next day? That must be easier to do with more, smaller, control units, though obviously needs some spare capacity somewhere.

I remember a time when I was last at Weston-Super-Mare station, the platform staff hidey hole had a 'slave panel' in it at the entrance to said hidey hole which was in full view of the travelling public although not many of the travelling public ventured so far down the up platform to notice it, I wonder if its still there.

I understand it has been removed, as has a similar one at Newbury.

The latter is now in the care of the Swindon Panel Preservation Society (http://www.swindonpanel.org.uk/2015/04/17/newbury-emergency-panel-arrives-at-didcot-railway-centre/).

I Am assuming that route control in swindon would be a backup incase the worst happened to TVSC. They must have thought of that obviously.

When I last went to Weston-Super-Mare I had noticed it had gone, there were just desks where it stood. This was back in May 2012, that I visited.

What has happened in Gloucester right now, the trains are all new becoming very delayed with one stuck at barnwood.

From Cross Country Journey Check:

 Delays to services between Cheltenham Spa and Bristol Parkway
Due to a points failure between Cheltenham Spa and Bristol Parkway all Southbound lines are blocked.
Impact
Train services running through these stations may be delayed. Disruption is expected until 20:45 24/12.
Last Updated:24/12/2018 19:46

From Journeycheck


Aren't platforms 1 and 2 in fact one long single platform?  Even more strangely have they really been out of order for more than three years?

There’s also the same warning/date for Exeter Central on journrycheck now too

I'm waiting to see the same warning for Oldfield Park.  ;D

Apparently the footbridge to Gloucester Eastgate is also closed until further notice.

Whilst waiting for a train at Pinhoe this morning, the delightful lady announcer - having requested our attention - politely advised customers to hold the handrail when using the stairs, or use the lift provided during icy conditions.

Pinhoe station has not had a footbridge - let alone a lift - since ceasing its original life back in 1966!

For a short while Oldfield Park had a footbridge whilst the steps leading to platform 1 were demolished and replaced with the disabled access ramp you see today. I think it was around the early 2000s.

Pilning: The escalator is currently out of order. Please use the jet packs provided.

Coming down the Stroud Valley from Sapperton - should your passenger train make for Gloucester or Cheltenham Spa?   

Since Eastgate closed many decades ago, there's a choice to be made and the solution adopted by GWR services from and via Swindon and Stroud is to go in to the remaining Gloucester station, there reversing and heading on to Cheltenham Spa.  Cross Country services have - with one or two exceptions each day - made the decision to simple leave out Gloucester.

Yesterday, the 16:58 from Cheltenham Spa to Paddington missed out the Gloucester stop ... and from being 1 minute late off Cheltenham, called at Stonehouse 9 minutes early (then waited time at Stroud).  That's an indication of the time cost ... 10 minutes.

No 'point' here other than to inform ... but it does set me thinking.  As a system analyst, I have oft scratched my head and wondered the best way to provide services around this area; as someone who does not live in the area, I am not going to sit here and evaluate any ideas I might think of.  Comment from others welcome, though.

I suppose really the question is not so much how long but how much it costs, how much revenue it generates, and what the balance of the two is.

Once I had finally got them off the DfT through FOI, I studied all the Jacobs Consultancy business case reports that underpinned the infamous 2006 Greater Western Franchise. They were full of analysis of what could be saved both timewise and financially by missing this or that stop out. However, there wasn't any such analysis of missing Gloucester out, and that probably tells you all you need to know.

Mind you, the whole concept of a rail "business case" is very "old normal", and who knows when we will see those days again, if we ever truly do.

My instinct is that Gloucester's services are probably at the lower end of the expectation range, and reducing them further would probably not be a sensible move for a number of reasons.

How else would you get from Gloucester to Stroud, for example?

Not only that, but Cheltenham and Gloucester go together nicely to justify the new hourly through service to London.  Take out the Gloucester call and the numbers wouldn't stack up.

Oh indeed ... my "10 minutes" posted as a learning point; seeing what happens when something goes wrong is often very educational.  No suggestion from me to drop the Gloucester call in otherwise unchanged current service patterns - what would be rather unfortunate!

From Stroud to Gloucester ... why not take government advise which until yesterday suggested you get off a stop early if that was a quieter station, and walk.  Cue large numbers of very annoyed peolple on the road from Stonehouse to Gloucester  ;D :D

There is of course nothing new in trains taking diversions tp pick up additional traffic.

There is at least one daily service from Paddington to Swansea via Bristol

Once upon a time NE/SW trains ran direct and non stop betweeh Sheffield and York. Now they alternate between goinf via Wakefield/ Leeds and Doncaster

At least one XC train on the NE/SW route bound for Cardiff deviates via Bristol

Manchester to Hayfield services operate via Glossop

Many Lancaster to Leeds trains take a trip to Morecambe on the way

But back to being strictly on topic, Paddington to Cheltenham trains have always reversed at Gloucester and they could always, theoretically, have gone direct fromTuffley to Barnwood. In steam days, that was one of the reasons that Horton Road had a fleet of large prairie tanks for.

Styal line services have been reversing at Manchester Airport since the station opened

It would be a very oddstate of affairs indeed if class 800s on the Carmarthen to Paddington run didn't call aat Swansea!

Two things in my ideal World,although some one may have suggested them in the past

First option(now lost due to Morrisons) would have been the triangle at Gloucester.

Trains from Cheltenham to London/Bristol could have stopped on the main line and picked up passengers from Gloucester and then continued to to stonehouse/Bristol Parkway.

With a footbridge to the triangle to get passengeres to and from Gloucester station.

Second option which can still be done,trains from London which terminate at Cheltenham could have a signal installed just before cheltenham station to take you onto platform one.

This would be good for trains running late and dare I say racing days

From the time a train arrives at cheltenham from London to the time it gets over to the other side and ready to start its return journey is fifteen minutes.

NR do have a plan tucked away in a drawer for platforms on the main line. This was their summary from the Western Route Study:

In the details about Route Section N, the time penalty for a Gloucester call with reversal is given as 12 minutes. The assessment of option N2 is:

I’ve told the first part of this story on here before, but for completeness I’ll tell it again.

Under Beeching, Eastgate was chosen to be Gloucester’s only station. To facilitate the closure of Central, the old down main platform was extended allowing it to connect to Eastgate. This also allowed the long footbridge that connected the two to be closed and dismantled, opening up that site for redevelopment.

As a result of increasing traffic congestion in Gloucester on the level crossings on the Tuffley loop, and especially the chaos caused by Barton Street gates over a main arterial road into the city, Gloucester City Council started agitating towards closing the route. This happened in December 1975.

Moving on to today, Gloucester (Central) is exactly what it says on the tin. The bus station is less than 100 yards from the station entrance, and beyond the bus station is the main retail area in the city centre. It would be hard to imagine a more perfect location for a main railway station in any city.

Google Maps tells me that the closest the main line gets to Gloucester Central is at Metz Way, and that is 1.2 miles away from Central station. By definition (see above) it is much the same distance away from the bus station and the city centre shops. Put ”railway folk” thinking to one side and look at it from the general public’s perspective. How many of the general public are going to prefer a station 1.2 miles away from where they want to go to one that they can fall out of and be where they want to go?

How many of the general public are prepares to walk 1.2 miles each way to anywhere? How many additional car journeys would be generated because the “main” station is no longer right next to the bus station? How much land would be needed for parking at the new station? Even if there was a shuttle bus (or train) service, how would that be any more convenient than what is already there?

As regards time penalties, there would of course be new ones as trains that normally rattle through non-stop would have to make a station stop. Has that been factored into the equations?

I think that questions like this need to be addressed before we start worrying about which budgetary period the money will come from.

Finally, a tale of what happens to new railway services that are perceived to be worse than the one they replaced. My parents told me that my pram and me were often put into the guards van when they went shopping from Staple Hill to Bristol St Phillips. In September 1953 (I was 15 months old at the time so blissfully unaware of any of this at the time!) the railway decided they didn’t need St Phillips any more and diverted services to Temple Meads.  My parents then stopped using the train because Temple Meads was “too far” from the shops, and I went in a push chair on the bus. And my old man was a railway carpenter, but he still wouldn’t use the train after that!

Before you try to mend something, first check to make sure that it is indeed broke...

From just an observation of timing / reaping a piece of data while it was available, I seem to have stirred up a great deal of interest.    I don't know if anything is broken or not;  I do know of plans to add a second local train in each hour arriving from the Bristol direction, and I'm aware of aspirations for a second hourly train arriving from the Stroud direction - just worth gathering evidence at a time that disruption allows it to be gathered.

You'll always have a balance / decision to make where a train approaches a junction with potential destinations on both legs ... do you split the train, do you run to "one" or "t'other" and if you do that latter, do you alternate destinations, or double back across the top of the triangle?   Do you even complete the triangle with the train running back whence it came having served both points in succession?   Would a station relocation at or near the split help in any way?  How about a new station so that trains approaching from various directions can alternate in which leg they take, with passengers having a quick change if the service they're on happens to be going the wrong leg?

My understanding is that trains cannot be reversed from the south in the platforms at Cheltenham Spa (I am subject to correction on that) and if they could, the time taken would create a significant pinch point on the two track railway towards / from Birmingham (I am subject to correction on that too).  There were plans for extra terminating platforms at Cheltenham Spa for trains from the south, I recall.  This they have gone away (yet again, subject to correction).

Don't know if there is a problem.   I do recall the MEP for the South West, Molly Scott Cato, telling of her train trips from her home in Stonehouse to parts of her constituency such as Exeter and Plymouth - how after leaving on the train, reversing at Gloucester and changing at Cheltenham Spa, she passed back through Stonehouse on the other line there some 40 minutes into her journey.   Stroud Valley to Bristol and beyond is perhaps another topic ...

At the risk of being accused of stating the obvious, if you want to go from A to B by train then you have to do it the way the railway goes. Gong from Stonehouse to Exeter via a double reversal at Gloucester and Cheltenham and then virtually going back past your house may seem a little odd to a layman, but there are of course alternatives.

Go via Swindon, or get thee hence to Cam & Dursley and change at Bristol; at least with the latter route you start off going in the right direction and keep doing it.

I have had a similar situation in the past going from Chippenham to Swansea via Swindon. About 45 minutes after leaving Chippenham I am within 6 miles of my house as the train goes through Hullavington. There are plenty of other examples around the country.

But back to the topic at hand, I am far from convinced that there is anything broke at Gloucester that needs mending. There is at present a GWR hourly service going direct to Bristol, and another XC service running hourly changing at Cheltenham. Gloucester’s opportunities for travelling north are many – XC services on the Cardiff to Nottingham service; GWR services to Worcester and Malvern and, of course, a further hourly GWR service terminating at Cheltenham.

Furthermore the service frequency on virtually all these routes is far in excess of anything provided in the pre-privatisation era. I am not going to wider the issue to whether this is because of, or in spite of privatisation, of course – that is one for another day and another thread.

As an addition to Robin Summerhill's post on the centrality of Gloucester, I grew up in Stroud. Until my parents bought a car in 1983, we would go to Gloucester on the train; but if we went to Cheltenham, we would always take the bus, because Cheltenham station is not at all central whereas the buses go right into the middle of town.

Precisely. And in a way it also reflects the situation between Bristol St Phillips and Temple Meads in the 1950s.

Also see how many people get on and off Valley Lines trains at Cardiff Queen Street compared to General.

As an aside, if you did a straw poll on a northbound SW/NE train of passengers who were actually going to Gloucester, I wonder how many of them would actually know that they would pass through its suburbs on the way to Cheltenham (not everybody is interested in geography)!

On reading that report posted by Stuving again, It becomes very clear that this was written from a purely railway perspective with no regard being taken of how the travelling public might react. There is one short sentence about the well-sited situation of Central, but lots about building stations, reducing conflicting movements, additional calls being made at Gloucester, remodelling track and resignalling programmes. I am beginning to doubt that customer experience, needs and desires were ever properly considered, let alone taken into account.

Nobody has ever increased passenger numbers by making a train service less convenient.

Perhaps they should be let loose on another report to prove that, as Bath station is on a cramped site and has capacity issues, it would be far better to give the city a roomy brand spanking new station. At Bathampon junction...

General?  You're showing your age now.

With Queen St, as it's the first of the two when coming down from the valleys, and it's adjacent to one end of the shopping centre, it's not surprising that shoppers will get off there. But one can then work one's way through the centre, through the retail emporia of St David's Centres, both 1 and 2, through John Lewis, stop at the chippie in Caroline St (maybe not) and then walk the couple of minutes to Central rather than retracing ones steps laden with the spoils of a morning's retail therapy.

For office commuters, the position is also a little more balanced, with quite a lot of relatively new offices around Callaghan Square just south of the main line, as well as now in Central Square since they built over the bus station (don't get me going on that one!).  There's also a lot of offices on the north side of the centre, which is better accessed from Cathays from the Taff line, but obviously via Queen St from the Rhymney Line. 

How full those offices will be in future is another question mind you, though even more off topic than this digression.

Just a short update after I looked at Google Maps.

The obvious, if not the only point on the line from Gloucester Yard to Barnwood junctions that you could put a new station is on the site of a brand new Morrisons supermarket.

How much would a Morrisons cost I wonder?

Went to bus station in Bristol City centre asking above question

We can only get you as far as  Berkely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OR National Express to cheltenham then a local bus back to Gloucester.

Checked with stagecoach and that involves THREE bus's

These are the reasons that train is best

Local buses simply aren't designed for regional journeys ... at best one town to the next.   You don't mention the much longer taken by bus in most cases.   Try comparing Swindon to Chippenham, or Chippenham to Bath.    There are exceptions such as Scarborough to Whitby which is much quicker by bus.

There was a time when the 308 ran up to Gloucester along the A38 using Stroud valleys dual purpose green and cream bus/coaches when they were part of Bristol Omnibus. You could also catch the X72 direct to Worcester with Midland Red, Newport and Cardiff with red and white, and Bath and Salisbury with Southern National on the X4.
However there always seems to have been a bus desert between Bristol, Bridgwater and Taunton, with no overlap between Western National and Bristol Omnibus.

Yep, I remember very occasionally using that Bristol Omnibus service as a kid.

They seem to be inspired by Cross Country.

I started a couple of Days Out on the 05.40 (I think!) 529 Bristol to Gloucester. I say 'I think' because it doesn't appear in my 1974-5 timetable; maybe it wasn't advertised because no-one in their right mind got up at that time in the morning... The driver would stop at the 'News Stop' newsagent in Horfield to pick up his paper, and have a chat and a fag.The 529 took just over two hours to get to Gloucester. As an alternative, you could have taken the 526 which went via Wotton and Dursley, was described as 'scenic' and took about half an hour longer.

There was a 419 Bristol to Swindon that left Bristol at 04.something, which I think I may have caught once, though I'm not sure how I got to the bus station in time as the first No.3 rolled into the Haymarket just before 6am. Maybe I walked?

You probably sleepwalked.

Just had a look online. One website has a Time Table (TT) for the 418 Bristol to Swindon: first one from Bristol given as leaving at 0645 in the Time Table (TT) valid 15/06/1969, journey time on that was 2.5hrs. IIRC there was, until a few years ago, an X54 Bath - Swindon on Sundays and Bank Holidays.

I had never heard of the 526 though (too old to have done so I think: when did it last run?):first from Bristol was 0651hrs, journey time approx. 2hrs 20min.

Dave

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying abbreviation

I've just checked with one of my old school mates who used to do Days Out with me in the mid-70's and he confirms what we all suspected - I have indeed gone mad. My '74 timetable has the first 529 to Gloucester going out at 0605, and the first 419 to Swindon at 0640... which is early enough for a teenager, especially given the need to get the bus into town from Hengrove before I started!

being reported on BBC points west local news at 06:25am on Tuesday.

Available to re-watch for 24 hours

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-58871999

The photo is decidedly not anywhere in Gloucestershire.....

On the BBC POINTS WEST lunch time news at 13:30pm on tuesday has the item on again,available for 24 hours only

involving the front of the station is being reporting on BBC points west local morning News.
Maybe more info on the evening news,and maybe BBC radio Gloucestershire might carry further info.

Maybe they could build a light rail to connect platforms 2 and 1!  ;D

or a moving walking escalator?

posting this info as the delays are expected till the end of service on saturday 27 August.

Looks as if the cross country trains are not effected

JourneyCheck tells us:

Although the line towards South Wales is closed at the moment so lots of buses not trains around.

From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-65039033)

effecting lines to south wales and bristol parkway reported approx one hour ago.

delays expected till 10:30am friday 16 june

Loss of signalling control and indicators at Gloucester Panel due to blown fuse. Replacement fuse also blew. Severe wire degradation discovered. Currently (0700) no route setting available in and out of Gloucester. Only route available is north/south on the main line avoiding Gloucester.

Would it be an overreaction to find this extremely worrying? ‘Degraded wires’ suggests the possibility of false indications, as happened at Clapham all those years ago…

 Spent a 'delightful'  3hrs 15mins at Cam and Dursley this morning. 
 
 No sign of the 'Great Experience Makers'  GWR brag about.
 Watching both XC and GWR flying through, (perhaps a special stop order might have been appropriate).
 So my thanks to the local passengers who kept my declining spirits up.

if you get stuck over the summer again on saturdays and sundays this might be of some interest

https://www.gloucestershirecommunityrail.org/slimbridge-shuttle

The Clapham accident was not due to "degraded" wiring, the cause was due to the "electricians PVC insulation tape" used to hold a disconnected wire taken off of a "jam jar" relay as part of a re-signalling project, this wire dropped down and came into contact with the exposed terminals on the top of a "jam jar" relay.

Degraded wiring in signalling equipment is a known issue and the risks are known, the signal maintainers have specific plans in place for the regular non disturbance checks on the equipment

 Perhaps you could argue that the current signalling system is 'not fit for purpose'.
 
  I'm sure that with all the modern technology their must be a more efficient way to
  manage the safe movement of trains ?

 

That’s reassuring. I have read the Clapham report, and understand the circumstances of the signalling fault that led to it.

So do we think this ‘problem’ in Gloucester might have been a failed non-disturbance test?

Degraded insulation has a higher risk of a fault.

It may not have been an insulation failure that lead to the fuse blowing; the degraded insulation could have impacted on how a failed item that blew the fuse was replaced

On that day, I was on a local train from Oldfield Park travelling to Temple Meads. This was a service which was due to go to Gloucester, and the announcement on the train was that it would terminate at Bristol Parkway, and "would not be calling at Yate and Gloucester", which i found intriguing as they didn't even mention Cam and Dursley!

Cam and Dursley has only about a half of the service of Yate as I understand it. So perhaps it wasn't scheduled to call?  I also understand that bus links to that station are "less than ideal".  Not the only station around where one feels that more trains calling might make a huge difference, although thankful for the improvements at many in May.

Ah, I hadn't realised that the doubling of trains to Gloucester didn't include stops at Cam & Dursley.

My understanding is that there is capacity for a call at Cam & Dursley, but that this capacity will be needed when Charfield opens. It is considered better not to provide Cam & Dursley with a 2tph service which would then have to revert to hourly when trains begin stopping at Charfield.

Do we know if that will mean that no trains will stop at both Cam & Dursley and Charfield, or whether every other train will stop at both and other trains stop at neither?

What then happens if a new station opens at Stonehouse on the main line? Or is that just too far in the future to be considering?

I do find it surprising if there is a capacity issue. The only competing passenger services are the inter-city half hourly services, and perhaps naively, I would assume the stopping services could just slot in a few minutes behind these.

I didn't think Charfield was anything more than a vague "would be nice". I know an application for planning permission was made but are there solid plans, architectural drawings, contracts with engineers, etc, behind it?

Charfield Station got planning approval in March 2023 (South Glos P22/05778/R3F). So it does indeed have a full set of architectural drawings.

In terms of its prospects, I'd say it was about par with Portishead.

See https://sites.southglos.gov.uk/newsroom/transport/charfield-station-plans-approved/

That makes it a shame if it's the reason more trains aren't calling at Cam & Dursley.