Great Western Coffee Shop

Just discovered this a little while ago...

Has anybody on here got it? Looks quite good I think (although I do already have the National Rail app) and this one's free!

One question I have about it though, if anyone can answer this - when you search for a train it gives you the timetable details followed by a train number - for example an FGW train would have GW followed by two or more numbers. I'm just wondering what this number is - it doesn't look like it's a headcode, so what is it?

That could be the Train's RSID number. Retail Service Identity.

Give us an example of a current service and I'll check.

Well for the Greenford branch trains it gives just 07 as the number but for something like the 09:06 PAD-PLY today (Wednesday) it gives the number as GW1102.

EDIT: looks like it might indeed be the RSID number - just found a website explanning them and that they are usually printed on the seat reservation labels: http://dysgraphyk.madasafish.com/rail/rsid.htm

Reason I asked is because there is another system for identifying trains. The UID - Unique Identifier. Headcodes can be duplicated across the network and RSID is only used on 'bookable' services. UIDs are, err, unique.

The 0906 Paddington to Plymouth is thus:

Headcode: 1C76
RSID: GW1102
UID: C10440

So, the Greenfords will not have an RSID as you can't reserve seats on them.

As for the '07' - not sure! If its a different two figure number for each train then that could be the last two digits of the headcode - 2G07 is the 0716 GFD-PAD. If it's the same number for each train on the Greenford branch then possibly some sort of route identifier?

Yup, it's the RSID, depending on which systems you are using it's either described as the retail code or mission number.
As BNM said the code is usually printed on reservation labels (and more importantly used to download the correct reservations) and is also the code used by trains with electronic reservations to bring down the correct set of data, such as departure times and calling patterns. It's the top left piece of information on Voyager external screens (Pendolinos used to display the same but have now been configured to display the headcode instead).

I've never really understood why train numbers aren't published in Britain - I'd have thought providing the headcode or RSID routinely on journey planners/printed timetables/information systems might be helpful. I know that FGW's network timetable booklet shows headcodes, as does the odd journey planner, whilst others give the RSID. It just all seems a bit haphazard.

Why not give the headcode in the timetable and stick it on the front of the train as well where there's equipment to do so? I quite like the VT idea of having it on those info panels, although that's probably just the nerdy anorak in me coming through seeing as it won't mean any more to the casual punter than the RSID does on XC!

Answered your own question. Means nothing to the non- nerdy ordinary customer!

Actually I said that!  ;D


Yup, and I never would have known about RSIDs until I downloaded this app and questioned the digits on there. It's interesting that there are so many numbers used to identify trains - far more than the trainspotters probably know about anyway! All this time I thought the only numbers used to identify trains were the ones on the locos after the Class numbers, but I guess not as these will change almost every day, whereas the other numbers are more likely to be unique to the service.

Train numbers are published on just about everything in Germany from the journey planner, through  your individual  itinernery, seat reservations. Arrivals and Departure boards at stations CIS indicators. Plus the train formation boards on the platform to show where your coach will be on the paltform.

Although the latter caused a great deal of confusion when we travelled on a Koln Leipzig IC which ran in reverse! They are long trains!

On the ICE and IC you still get the printed timetable with all the connections, including non DB services, at all intermnediate and destination stations, listed all with train numbers.

They also tend to use the airline convention of odd and even numbers for each direction and trains pairs prticualry the ICE where a pair of say Munich Berlin BERlin Munich  trains will have consecutive numbers. ICE also tend to be named the name also appearing on many things,

It even appears on the drivers scrolling route map.

We were very impressed indeed with most of the elements of German railways last week - including these timetables on the IC and ICE trains.  They also listed the platform numbers for the connections and the major bus connections too.  And we could easily walk in and out of stations and to the close-by connecting buses, and look at departure boards too which confirmed platform numbers for the whole day.

A very interesting comparison when we got back to the UK.   The train was waiting for us at Harwich - nice - and indicated by platform even though we were an hour early.  A very good start.  But ... then a number of things which - I suspect - "would not have happened in Germany".

* Scrum for the barriers at Liverpool Street, and when we eventually got there, our tickets (Harwich to Chippenham) were tossed out with "Seek Assistance".  Actually quite hard to get back from the barriers through the crowd and round to the manned gate ... manned by a reluctant and disinterested chap who wasn't coping very well with the flood of people being referred to him.

* Scrum for the barriers into the underground too. Again ticket rejected and a struggle to the gate - makes all the difference if it's manned (or womanned) by someone who's cheerful.

* Steps down to the tube booking hall, then up, over and down to our platform - no obvious sign of a lift (and surely we're not the only Liverpool Street arrivals with luggage who want to head west).  One more set of steps than we had found at any other transfer!

* At Paddington, the tube from Liverpool Street, King's Cross St Pancras and Euston Square arrives at platform 15 these days ... steps again, and a l-o-n-g walk to the concourse.    We hung about on the bridge until our train was platformed, and I wonder about how much business the concourse shops have lost since the removal of the through Liverpool Street to Paddington Circle service.

* Not even any seats available on the footbridge at Paddington.  Pretty poor show;  we really don't want to lug our luggage all the way up to the concourse only to have to lug it back past all the 1st class accommodation ...

* Platform was announced / indicated only 8 minutes before departure.  I know it has been explained that Paddington is different to Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof, Koln, Koblenz, Dusseldorf, Venlo, Utrecht, Hoek van Holland, Sulzbach, Frankfurt Hocst and Rotterdam Central and there cannot be an assurance of platforms ahead of the time that most passengers will arrive in the station, but this difference does lead to a severely downgraded customer experience.

* Just announcements about "change here for xxx" before Reading and Swindon - no telling us which platform to go to.  And nothing to tell us to get off at Chippenham for the Melksham bus (run by the same company as the train!)  ;)

To be fair, I'm sure there would be seats on the overbridge if it were wider....Again, it's a penalty to be paid for as we had the first railway system.....like the tube missing it's lifts.

Just not built to take the numbers travelling in the modern day - and no money (it would take ^billion or so) for upgrading work.

Erm, no. Obviously at the moment they mean nothing to the average customer because they're not generally advertised.

My question was why aren't they advertised and used in timetables/information systems etc etc.

Straight back atcha ;)

Because no one currently needs them?

You could argue that no-one "needs" them in the rest of the world, even though almost every other country uses train numbers and shows them on screens/reservations/timetables. You could also argue that no-one "needs" a full customer information system at Temple Meads seeing as for some considerable time back in the late 1990s it struggled through with a single functional ex-BR screen in the booking hall. But the fact that something may not be strictly necessary doesn't mean it wouldn't be helpful.

I suspect many of us on the board are pretty blase about getting on the right train because we've done it all so many times before. On the other hand, I would hazard a guess that the nervous/elderly/occasional traveller may find it comforting to see a train number displayed on the screens and prehaps even the train that corresponded to the one on their ticket. The format of the UID and RSID codes may be a bit cumbersome but the four-character headcodes are already in the system and used by staff so why not just make them public (or more public than they are now)? One advantage is that you can identify a given service immediately: what's easier, asking about "train 1P75" or about the 1931 Oxford/1954 Reading/2010 Slough to Paddington service depending on where you're enquiring? OK they may not be completely unique, but one of the tenets of the system is that trains running under the same headcode are well separated from each other temporally and/or geographically, so the potential for confusion should be pretty minimal.

Totally agree, IB ... a unique code for a train rather than a whole series of codes (departure time and places) for the same train ... some of which won't be unique without further data such as the destination.   It could be a big help for people with advanced purchase tickets at times that trains are delayed ...

Nice to know that XC can provide info that's completely meaningless to most passengers, but still cannot provide useful stuff - such as which services are planned to be HSTs...

Paul

Agreed, that info is only available from timetables produced by other TOCs, or to those who know where to look:

http://www.125group.org.uk/diagrams-AXC.pdf

...even then, there are no guarantees. Have heard that the HSTs are deputising for Vomiters on all sorts of diagrams.....

As much as I would want to I would never trust booking a journey on XC because its listed somewhere as being an HST as you could end up disappointed when a Voyager turns up instead of a booked HST.

Between them Virgin and the SRA finished long distance travel by XC for me. Will go via London instead.

Is that on weekdays or just weekends - they'll be running southbound later when the Taunton blockades are on, I expect.

Paul

That'll be why the don't put that info in the timetables then. They'd only increase the number of complaints every time one got substituted....

Those diagrams were for last summer, when it appears that on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday there were only two daily diagrams.  That has obviously changed to four now?

HMmm - so that's not accurate! Anywhere else?

http://www.thejunction.org.uk/diagr.html (http://www.thejunction.org.uk/diagr.html)

Weekdays only unfortunately.

Paul

Also it would be useful for the proverbial little old lady with her advanced ticket to London at Manchester Picadilly.

They could ask for 1AXX which would be prominently display on their itinery/ticket/reservation. Which would avoid confusion with asking for the next London train with the20 minute service.

Yup four daily diagrams these days, the reason there were four daily HST diagrams last summer Monday and Friday but not Tues - Thurs is that a MAN-BMH and I believe a PLY-EDB diagram ran double set on M&F.

Whatever the weekend diagrams the four sets (if all four were used - they are still on a pay as you use contract at the moment and as such if part of the network if sufficiently closed to release extra voyagers - such as Southampton Airport - Bournemouth recently then Voyagers on their fixed price contract would be used) they need to be diagrammed to end at either Neville Hill or Craigentinny where nightly maintenance is contracted, ideally two at each to aid the Monday morning start up.
Flip side is that if part of the network is closed and releasing extra Voyagers, another part may be diverted (such as SC-SW services being diverted via Newport) requiring extra Voyagers and leaving the status quo of HSTs.