Great Western Coffee Shop

From the Weston Mercury (http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/appalling_rail_service_slammed_1_785487):

Oh dear, disgusted of Hampshire couldn't get on a train because it was too busy. Oh no, hang on, he did. Doesn't your heart just bleed that he ahd to stand on a busy train for 10 minutes or so? ::)

How is a disgruntled occasional passenger from Hampshire writing to FGW in any way newsworthy?

If YOU do not think it is safe, it is YOUR choice on whether to board a train nobody is forcing you.

Perhaps he has just completed the SHRUG training.  ;D

But ... look at the story another way too.   

Someone travels to the area served by trains based at Bristol, and finds the service dramatically underresourced compared to his own part of the country.   It's not really surprising, looking at the assumed growth (0.8% per annum) and actual growth (8% - 10% per annum) on the franchise. And other stories, such as I could tell, of people wanting to travel by train to quite large population centres, but finding no services available at all.  All rather a confirmation that the current franchise was let at a really low point, and that in the current shuffling as new trains come on track, the case for a dozen or so carriages to come to St Phillip's Marsh is strongly made.   That provides the stock to sort out those places where people sometimes can't get on the trains because they're overcrowded, and it provides the stock to sort out those places - with lines and stations - where people can never get on the trains because they're not actually being run at present.

It may hurt our pride in our area, but there's some good to be had from people from outside complaining it's not good enough.  It not just David Thomas who's going to be put off travelling to Nailsea, Melksham, Gloucester or Trowbridge if things carry on as they are - it's also Gerry Smith, Hilda Bagshore, Tracey Brown, Mohamed Patel, Henry Blythe, Anna Haythornthwaite and many more, and without them it's the economy of our area and not just the train service / train operating company that suffers.

I wonder if the answer would be to change what seems to be a Bristol default of 3 carriages to 4 carriages, running as 2 x 2 car units would give a little more flexibility. The approximate 25% capacity growth would help no doubt and wouldn't take up extra paths. Meanwhile whereas now if the middle car fails on a three car unit it ends up being an awkward shunt to remove the carriage a simple uncoupling would be all that is necessary. Although the cynic in me say it might mean we see fewer cancellations but more short formed workings.

Oh and as a side benefit we would see those many 4 car stop boards coming into use :-)

Wow! Who would have thought that a bank holiday Monday would be so busy? I suppose it must have been everyone on their way to the sales or travelling home after Xmas.

A story appeared in the Bristol Evening Post (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Trains-like-trip-Victorian-conditions/article-3128325-detail/article.html) a couple of weeks ago, about similar problems at Keynsham:

I don't consider that photo too bad, afterall he is only travelling for 7 minutes if that. Not sure what you expect when you are joining at the last station before everybody bails off (similar to Nailsea really)

You get the same complaints from Yate passengers who join at Bristol Parkway for their eight or nine minute journey.  :(

And still much quicker and cheaper than the bus ........

Your point being...? Would Warburton rather it took longer to travel into Bristol, in order to justify it costing the money in his mind? BTW, it's GBP 18.30 for a sevenp-day season which works out cheaper. I really don't understand what planet some commuters are on some times. You want to travel in and out of a city in the morning and evening peaks, trains will be busy. Frankly the price from Keynsham is hardly larcenous and the suggestion that it's intolerable to stand for a six-minute journey is ridiculous. I'm assuming he's never tried using the London Underground at 0817...

Of course I know I know it would be PR suicide and won't ever happen for very good reasons, but a part of me would love, just once, to read a story in which FGW commented "frankly this is a silly fuss about nothing".

Have we become apologists for FGW all of a sudden?

2 complaints have finally made it to the press, covering untold people who are in a similar situation but don't bother to complain and just put up with it.

Early January was actually abysmal, and having posted elsewhere an indication of Firsts lack of interest in regional rail and they will try get away with as much as possible in that part of the franchise over the extremely lucrative HSS services. First didn't really want the regional element of the franchise which became pretty clear in the 12 months following the franchise award. To get to the point of  the threat of franchise removal before they actually returned the service to something resembling pre franchise levels, and even there not all areas, it was  clear what their intent was. And how close they are sailing to the wind is becoming ever clearer.

They are now reverting to type and blaming the DfT for all the recent ills due to lack of stock, don't make me laugh. I would be intersting to see the failure rate (MPC) of the regional fleet over the past two years, and a regular update as we approach franchise renewal. But that will be commercially sensitive won't it. How do the leasing company feel about the care FGW have shown during their rental of their assets?

No, I haven't. Fair enough things aren't perfect, but equally I think there's a balance to be struck here. I'm utterly baffled by why even a local rag would think that second story was newsworthy. Complaining about standing on a six-minute commuter journey made at the height of the rush hour seems a little precious in my opinion. Especially when the alternative bus service would be dearer and take much, much longer, with no guarantee of a seat either. I don't think this case is indicative of any huge failings on FGW's part (although there may very well be others that are), it's just someone who wants to complain for the sake of it.

In all fairness to FGW, they are only too aware that their regional trains are more often than not rammed in the morning and evening peaks but what can they do about it? There isn't any spare DMU stock sitting in sidings that they could lease. They have to wait until the 172s for London Midland come on stream so part of the fleet of 150/1s can make their way down here.

If FGW were delibrately leaving DMU rolling stock in sidings during peak times to save money than that would be different and they would deserve every bit of bad press going but they aren't...there just isn't the DMU rolling stock available right now. It would be the same story if you were travelling on Northern or East Midlands Trains who are also waiting for the London Midland 150/1s to become available to bolster their overcrowded services.

I would blame the press then for their selection of the complaint rather than there being underlying issues with overcrowding, which they should be keeping an eye on.

Anyway don't we have a rule regarding making comparisons with other parts of the network.  ;)

I agree Timmer regarding the DMU situation, but there are still loads of MkII coaches sat idle in Barton Hill.

2 peak hour failures last week that affected my regular journey, and we had to swap trains at Westbury last night to enable a failing Portsmouth train to get back to Bristol.

Also waiting at Bristol for the fitter with a hammer to ensure the coupling is complete, and the regular PAX just shrug.  :-\

Those who pay the least complain the most.  It is a universal rule.

Time for a driver to stick his oar in!
Commuters, spread your travel FFS! I had the misfortune of doing "office hours" recently and to listen to the whinging and moaning due to having to stand for a whole 10 minutes :o

Modern technology, work 0600 to 1400, or 1100 to 1900.
Thank God no more 9 to 5s until July!!!

PS I stand for 20 minutes even with empty seats, as I don't pay. Shame some other staff stay sat down.

This isn't just about standing for a few minutes, its about being crammed in, people all down the aisles, in the bit between the cars and squashed against the doors. How can you justify a crappy two car bus thing for the 17:30 from BTM? We used to have that big loco thing, which is still all just sitting about in the sidings.

I don't care about excuses, this is typical rail industry bollocks, shuffling crappy stock from here to there, SW always seems to be last in the 'cascade' line. Its not about new routes or new services, just a few more carriages. Its nuts. Just buy some. Just sort it. I don't care about leasing agreements, and franchise terms and clearing this and that to work here or there. We're talking about getting a few more units to tack on the end of things running anyway.

Thankfully i have an alternative, the bus isn't much longer door-to-door and the bike is fine when the whether is ok. But the poor sods going from Yatton or up to Abbey Wood are a bit stuck.

Utter crap. This is why costs are spiralling and tickets prices soaring, everything takes so long on the railways, everything is so complicated and having this poisonous monopoly controlling 99% of Bristol's public transport is choking the city.

/rant. 

p.s i'd work 11 - 8 if they'd let me. They won't. 80% of people don't get the choice either :(

jamin bob as you seem well versed on the whole situation and arent interested in so called crappy excuses ...please answer this question where is the additional rolling stock going to  actually come from?
The loco stock was a temporary measure and couldnt be introduced around Bristol  as Bristol Crews dont sign the Traction.

Well I do hope the rail industry (and DfT) will come up with some answers soon before the rail industry (again) loses the credibility that it's the solution to anything outside London.

Your making excuses. I don't care where it comes from. China? France? The old intercity coaches sitting just outside Temple Meads?

All I heard in the second sentence was blah blah blah blah, rail industry claptrap, blah blah blah. Sign? What? Get a new crew then.

/edit language suggestion.

Administrator's note ... this topic was temporarily moved from public view for consideration, as the content was getting a bit strong / adversarial.  However, after that consideration I have moved it back into view, and I'm leaving it available for further comment.

There are, undoubtedly, some services which are unfit for the purpose of being a common carrier of passengers who want to travel.   If you're denied access because you can't squeeze on at Trowbridge, or denied travel because there isn't a train at all at Melksham, then clearly the rail industry is not providing that service.

It is not, however, possible simply to put more trains on the track tomorrow.  Those who complain at overcrowding would also complain at an accident caused by a driver who didn't know his train.  And I doubt whether they would want to pay the full price of extra services up to a London Underground frequency. Never the less, in parts of the South West including my home town, the rail industry and the governing bodies above us have, in the last 10 years, failed us.

There *is* a brighter side in the current review of stock levels and I'm more hopeful now than I would have been 3 months ago.   The playing field is set to be more level as far as the South West is concerned since the change of government last year.

P.S.   See http://csre.co.uk/  for your Chinese railway stock and I've seen comment that these folks are talking with a number of rail companies.  I also understand that talk may turn into actions sooner rather than later - though I don't think you'll see them in Temple Meads.   What you might see is them running elsewhere in the UK, allowing other stock to be cascaded to Bristol.   And before you say "we don't want handdowns", remember that you yourself asked about the old coaches in the sidings at Bristol!

The complaint about overcrowding is of course valid, after all commuters pay a hell of a lot of money to often stand for ages forced against each other. It's easy to say 'well it's only ten minutes', but after a full days work, people are often knackered, tired, fed up and so forth, and the last thing they need is that. Not everyone works in an office sat on their arse all day. So I completely sympathise with the commuter, who just often sees everything as inefficient.

However it is not as simple as it all seems.

With regards the loco and coaches kit, it was hired out from a freight company, EWS, along with the drivers for it. The guards were Great Western staff, who had to all be trained up on it. Because the guards in question generally work the 1980's power door unit type stock, they would have had to have full training, as it is a completely different way of working, a computer example might be training windows users on linux.

As for getting 'new crew', the training period for guards to become competent is between three and six months, not including the recruitment process, which includes psychometric assessments and stringent medicals. There is no easy way to speed this up, although granted it can take ages from applying for a job, to actually starting it, but the mechanics of recruiting guards or indeed drivers can hardly be cut down, after all do you want to take someone with a criminal record for money offences, or who keeps putting passengers lives at risk due to not having the required concentration, or who has a condition that can cause them to collapse whilst doing safety critical duties? And what possible economic sense would there be to recruit new staff to work on 1970's designed coaches, with a 1990's designed engine for one or two lines?

New stock, the question being who is going to fund it? And even if such stock comes about, it will take a good while to build, then test before the training of staff can begin. If we take the example of the class 172, which is probably the most suitable design of unit for the services in question, then orders were placed for the stock in late 2007 / early 2008. The first units were delivered in July 2010, and the majority will be expected to be complete later this year. Over the pond in Ireland, the Irish railway decided to order units from Korea / Japan. The order was placed in 2005 and it was until 2007 before the first units were in service. Buying from China or whoever is unlikely to be much quicker.

Is the railway too slow and complex with regards leasing agreements and suchlike? Almost certainly yes. You won't find many people, be it commuters, the general taxpayers, railway staff, or railway managers in favour of the current set up. But then the public have systematically voted for governments who are happy to keep the system as it is. With this current administration being very much about cutbacks, the chances of railways benefiting under them are extremely slim.

I personally believe the only two solutions are either very long franchises (i.e. like Chiltern) or full nationalisation. Either way both are highly political, and would meet with opposition from either the multinationals or the unions, either option certainly would take ages to bed in, a load of lawyers would get very rich on public money, not to mention other massive costs, even if it was ultimately successful, but regardless of this, this is far beyond the remit of this thread, and becomes another topic altogether.

Are commuters getting a poor deal? Absolutely. But blame successive governments who have perpetuated this fragmented nonsense. After all the Train Operating Companies, don't exist to run trains, they exist to make a profit by running trains. Whether or not you think that is a good or bad thing is entirely up to you, but it's worth bearing in mind at all times, and of course Wrexham and Shropshire, who certainly had a superb customer focused ethos, couldn't translate that into enough cash...

Whilst it may be unreasonable to expect a seat for very short journys, they should at least provide enough standing room, and seats on longer trips.
I appreciate that staff cant be recruited overnight, and that building new rolling stock takes time, but there does seem to be a lack of urgency regarding overcrowding.

However longer DMUs dont need any more staff than shorter ones.
From time to time one does hear of trains sitting idle whilst passengers are denied even standing room.
If staff lack the required training for a different type of train, does anyone consider providing this training ? Or do those in charge just shrug their shoulders and say "its rush hour/bank holiday/weekend, stop complaining.

There seems to be endless disscusions, meetings, consultations etc. but very little action.
In some cases train lengths have been reduced.

 Obviously quite an emotive subject, we all have our own thoughts/horror stories depending upon which part of
 FGW land we live in.
 Personally, like a lot of people who commute, my window of travel is quite limited.
 Most of my travel is Paigton/Newton Abbot/Dawlish and Totnes, so most of the stock from Exeter Depot.
 Only lived in this neck of the woods for 20 years so perhaps the knowledgable will tell me when
 the last time 'brand new' stock was last obtained in this region.

 My thoughts, FGW seem to be 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' relying on electrification to cascade stock to this region.
 There does not seem to be many spare units at Exeter Depot, My 0824 Newton Abbot - Paigton was 30 minutes late
 in the week, and consisted of a single unit which was obviously full.
 Next Paignton not for an hour so thank God for the number 12 bus.
 Fortunately retirement is not too far away.
 

Think the Pacers were probably the last brand new stock to hit Exeter and that was the first time around circa 1985. The problem is The Rail Operator is told to run this amount of trains with that amount of specified stock by the DFT. we all know for right or wrong reasons the initial years of the great western franchise were under specified with the amount of stock .
Most train operators would love to replace all this worn out ex br stock, problem is if that happened DFT would find it extremely difficult to micro manage and remove a franchise from a TOC which owned its own stock..

Again we are back to the problem of fragmented private monopolies with government interference. First Group for the record actually own some of their own HSTs outright. However part of the reason you see these trains on wholly unsuitable routes stopping at every lamp post, is again due to the lack of suitable stock.

As for train lengths getting shorter, this started in BR with sprinters being brought in to replace locomotive hauled stock, but at a greater frequency. The worst example of it though being the introduction of Voyagers, which may in themselves may be suitable to supplement a core intercity network, but to outright replace HSTs and six / seven car loco hauled trains, has been a disaster.

And yes there are far too many focus groups and meetings and whatnot, where nothing much happens... But it's all a question of money, and thus becomes political...

Don't I know it! I've been campaigning for an appropriate TransWilts service for longer than I care to remember, and there have been so many cases of meet, discuss, build up hopes, missing the annual deadline, carry on as before and it has been utterly frustrating. And many times, I have questioned the motives  of the negotiators, and the use that's made of consultation responses.  Are the negotiators talking to phillibuster the campaign?  Are the consultation results just used to tick a box that says "we have consulted"? It's very difficult to be certain of acts of bad faith, but there are some things, looking back, where I have to say "that was no co-incidence".   And it's very difficult to say "that consultation was ignored" just because our suggestions we're taken up.  Many ideas that come from consultations are ideas that are directly opposite to each other, and many of them are impractical - what do you expect when you ask people who are expects in their own fields to comment on some totally different field.  I may enjoy watching films on TV, but don't expect me to make practical suggestions as to how to administer the making of TV films.  Nine out of ten ideas I give you won't work, and the tenth will be so biased towards my own viewpoint that it would upset others if implemented.

I wrote an article a while back entitled something like "is the future or railways linking Labour constituencies?".   That was under the previous government, and was looking at how some places / regions of the UK seemed to do far better than others.  It was asked as a question; the Labour party is far more big city / urban than rural, and rail travel has a far stronger case carrying large numbers of passengers between city centres, and from the suburbs of mega-opolises such as Glasgow and London in to the centres than it does serving the hamlets and villages in remote valleys far from the madding crowd; you need crowds to make the train cost effective and make the business case for tuning it.  But the question was a good one and, sure, it did look very much as if there was a bias. Alloa - population 19000; Ebbw Vale, around 33000; Galashiels, 12000. Tavistock also 12000. Portishead, 20000, Melksham 24000, Falmouth 22000. But just a bias, not a completely open door on Labour areas, nor a completely shut one on what are now "parties of the coalition".

That's a history / background, if you like.  Yes - there have been seemingly endless meetings, etc.; it's been something of a campaign, with the parties who would be able to help having other priorities.

Have you come across the difference between "marketing" and "sales"?   Marketing is an enabler - a setting of the ground so that you're in good position, known, ground prepared, ducks more or less in line.  There's been an awful lot or marketing going on for the past few years.  Sales is the conversion of the position achieved through marketing into a real deal.  And we are, I think, now in a position to make that sale and working hard on it.   Yes - that means a few more meetings, a few more consultations as things are fine-tuned and detailed costings and business cases are put together - to "industry standard" and not just our own deductions from public available data.

The case for an increase in rolling stock in the FGW area is currently being reviewed / sold - you'll have noted threads and comments about Adalante units, for example.  And the case also includes the looking at extra stock to supplement the fleet of 14x and 15x unites based in the "West".

The element of that with which I'm personally concerned is the Swindon to Salisbury service - currently two southbound and no northbound through trains a day.  It's a line that connects the major towns and city of Wiltshire - gone are the days that the area was predominantly rural, with 70% of the population now living in towns (and the five largest of those on the route). Road connections are congested (which, ironically, tells us there's a flow to be provided for) and buses are great over a few miles, but can't make the journey in a time that's economically sensible when you start looking at the distances between Chippenham and Salisbury, or Trowbridge and Swindon.

We're not so much marketing now, we're now studying and selling.  TransWilts is part of the South West case - and there are other cases in the same package which I don't know enough about to comment on.  But I can tell you that all the elements of the package are now being supported, and enthusiastically, by a far wider breadth of organisations than I have even see involved before. That's partly because of a shift in government (and thus the politics), partly because of a shift in global conditions and people's attitude to them, and partly because of growth in both the populations of the towns served, and the growth in rail travel over the West area as a whole which has exceeded, substantially, the figures that were estimated when the franchise was let.

So - in summary. Yes - it has taken a long time. Yes, it seems endless. But perhaps we can soon start talking about an extra carriage on that train from Weston, catching the "quarter past seven" from Warminster direct to Swindon (arrive about quarter past eight), or returning back to Salisbury from Chippenham after a day at Wiltshire college, on the direct train at about a quarter to four.

Of course they do - when posters say such and such 'can't be done because crew don't sign the stock' - they really just mean it can't be done overnight. If needed drivers and guards would have to be trained. 

But there are issues with having unusual stock in an area - they'd have to train sufficent crew for all eventualities, without training so many that they'd never become familiar with the stock.

SWT seem to manage OK with the single 158 used on the Lymington branch during the week - their Bournemouth based drivers must spend most of their time on Desiros.

Paul

I guess the question I'm faced with is what would be the optimum solution, across the West almost every station calls in some way for more and better services.
There are proposals to reopen lines long lost to passenger services for example the Portishead and Filton North lines.
New stations across the Western network at least for Thames Valley Park (Reading East), Copenacre, Stonehouse Midland, Charfield, Gloucester South and Wooton Bassett could all go on the list.
Earlier services from Bristol to Gloucester calling at the intermediate stations perhaps too.
Increasingly regular services, we know passengers like the idea of clockface timetables as it brings security in knowing if I turn up at xx05 there will be a train to my destination.
Perhaps part of the problem for the Melksham line is that it sits in an important freight corridor too so maybe we need more capacity to carry freight too?
Add to that the existing passenger numbers which mean services are permanently overcrowded.

So where should the priorities sit? I'd love to see more stations, longer more frequent trains running earlier and later into the day.
Maybe a new build fleet of four coach trains would be the answer and a similar fleet of five coach units for the Thames Valley and then use these to give the capacity to allow the new stations to join the network? While that would perhaps sort out the worst of the regional problems it would leave the West of England unresolved but hopefully it would release sufficient two car units to meet the needs of the branch line traveller.
The reason I pick four cars is that it is a typical maximum at many of the West^s small stations but would allow eight coach trains to be operated easily between key cities in peak hours. I feel certain that if spare seats are available they will be filled, either by reducing the price per ticket or attracting new passengers away from the overcrowded roads.
The question then becomes what to do about paying for all the improvements we would like to see?

Probably not a great deal quicker than waiting for the train!

Part of the problem in recent years has been the rush to scrap old rolling stock as soon as new shorter trains are delivered.
New trains are needed in many cases to supplement existing stock, but tend to be replacements not additions.
The proposed Inter City Express (or whatever it is called at present) is being touted as a REPLACEMENT for HSTs. No question of keeping the HSTs as well in order to improve capacity.
I dont think that the average rail user will be very impressed if a 30 year old HST is replaced by a new EMU, especialy as this new train will probably be shorter and less comfortable.

A more logical approach would surely be to electrify say to Cardiff, and retain ALL the HSTs for use elswhere. How many overcrowded DMU services could be better run by an HST ? how many other overcrowded DMU services could be lengthened by the DMU vehicles thus freed ?
Not likely to happen though is it ? As soon as say 12 new trains have been delivered, they would probably scrap 14 HSTs in the hope of greater availability from the new EMUs.
End result after spending billions would be frequent cancellations on the newly electrified route due to "shortage of rolling stock"
Meanwhile the non electrified routes would be even worse than today, due to scrapping of diesel stock.

There's an interesting and well-argued opinion piece by Christian Wolmar in the current edition of RAIL (#662) which, by coincidence, touches on many of the issues raised above. In particular examines in some depth the fallacy perpetuated by Ms Villiers et al that train operators have commercial freedom to buy whatever rolling stock and operate whatever services they like above the franchise specification.

It's not available yet on his website but should be within a few days, so I'll try and remember to post a link to it when it appears.

You may be wide of the mark there; it is said that one of the reasons Cross Country and West Coast services are now bursting at the seams was the popularity of the new trains with the general, non-railway-enthusiast public. Frankly the way many rivet-counting bashers whine on about anything that has been built since the BR mark I you'd think they'd rather have us still with a steam-hauled railway bumbling along at 60mph.

I would be more inclined to put the increase in use, due to the increased speed and frequency on the West Coast, largely between Manchester / Glasgow / Birmingham and London than anything else. Certainly the effect of 3 trains an hour between Euston and Manchester has had a massive effect on domestic flights between London and the North West, than passengers preferring the new stock itself.

I would imagine that the average non railway enthusiast passenger doesn't really care less either way what they are being hauled by, and in fact some passengers considered the refurbished Great Western HST's to be 'new trains'. From talking to people I know, who travel on trains but have zero interest in them, they aren't impressed with voyagers as a replacement for '125s' - (which is any slam door BR intercity train in their book) - general complaints being lack of tables, hard straighter backed seats and frequent overcrowding.

On 'emotive', there's nothing wrong with having an opinion and being passionate about it. Not much would ever happen if people didn't and weren't. 

The point is that a lot of this is still just excuses. It's symptomatic of a rail industry which sees spiralling costs and Byzantine complexity. I'm sure we all see things in our daily real lives where things 'absolutely, positivity, definitely, cannot be done'... but where there is a will there is a way. If it is made a priority and people want it to happen, say customers or senior people, it gets done.

If this was a priority for FGW, MP's, local councils, whoever, it could be sorted or at least helped. The crazy loco with the intercity carriages is proof of that.

But it's not a priority. And why should it be when we carry on paying ever increasing fares like mugs and put up with it.     

Apologies for quoting myself, but the article referred to above is now available on Wolmar's website:
http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2011/02/rail-662-no-room-for-entrepreneurs-on-the-railway/ (http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2011/02/rail-662-no-room-for-entrepreneurs-on-the-railway/)

Well worth a read - it deals with several issues pertinent to the debate above and shows the system that train operators are up against which makes it exceedingly difficult for them to "just buy new trains" or run more services, despite the pronouncements of the government to the contrary.

[quote author=Doctor Gideon Ceefax link=topic=8364.msg84734#msg84734 I would imagine that the average non railway enthusiast passenger doesn't really care less either way what they are being hauled by, and in fact some passengers considered the refurbished Great Western HST's to be 'new trains'. From talking to people I know, who travel on trains but have zero interest in them, they aren't impressed with voyagers as a replacement for '125s' - (which is any slam door BR intercity train in their book) - general complaints being lack of tables, hard straighter backed seats and frequent overcrowding.
[/quote]

I would agree that many non-technical customers thought that the refurbished HSTs were new trains.
That however is by no means a compliment ! new trains are well known for high density bus seats, high backed seats, lack of tables, reduced catering and absence of luggage space.
Since the refurb consisted of removing most tables, adding extra seats, etc it is not suprising that some thought these were new trains.

Pathing for trains have been a problem for a long time, I'm sure we can understand the point raised by FCC in the Wolmar article, if they allow the extra service in then they risk loosing customers in addition to having to pay out on delay repay claims.
So does that mean that any new services have to operate over under utilised routes?

Working on three minute headways the absolute maximum any line can take is 20 trains per hour, the problem is of course that in practice station stops along the route probably nead nearer 5 minute headway, down to 12 trains per hour. The Brighton line is not four track throughout if my memory serves correctly, in addition to the 5 trains per hour FCC+Southern from Brighton there will be other Southern services joining the route from Lewes and Hove. Perhaps 4 trains between the 2 so at 9 trains per hour the route is getting very close to capacity as there needs to be some time left for delays, maintenance/freight movements and waiting to cross over to a terminus platform.

Choice one- Sitting in a full sized seat, at a table with a window, luggage space, ample leg room, working toilets and a restaurant. Hauled by a steam or other locomotive at a start to stop average of 60MPH.
BR mark 2 or 3 or similar.

Choice two- sitting on a high backed, high density bus seat with knees up near ears. No catering. Toilets out of order. Underfloor bus engine roaring, rattling and farting throughout.
Start to stop average speed 85MPH.
Voyager, Meridian or similar.


I know which I would prefer ! And that is without taking into account that on the new shorter train that I might not get a seat at all.