Great Western Coffee Shop

..well almost.  The 26 carriages that LM want to keep may or may not stay there.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/foi-responses/698001/698004/f0007261.pdf

It's actually a bit misleading in places by saying things like a 8x150 vehicles can replace a 8x156 vehicles, despite a 150 having around 15-20 seats less.

This is therefore yet another different plan to that in:

 http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8177.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8177.0)

That 'latest plan' was when FGW were getting 18 'vehicles', and Northern 8, all of a sudden Northern appear to be getting 20, ie an extra 12 vehicles/6 units to what was promised just before the election.  So well done to Northern's negotiating team?  ;D  (BTW I've subtracted the 8 that are being cancelled out by the Northern to EMT cascade.)

However the ex FGW 142s now seem to be dependent on a suitable business case; blah blah.  It all seems to change with the weather...

Paul

Yes, but Northern are to lose the Class 180s - I.e. 5x5coaches. These are returned to East Coast who have no use for them, so who knows where they will end up!

No, they only have 3 x 180s, and because they only have three, only two can be routinely diagrammed - it is a totally uneconomic way of providing capacity.

So as the DfT explain, they are replaced by 6 units, 12 vehicles.

Paul

Whoops, sorry about the wrong number of Adelantes. There are, of course 5 sets allocated to East Coast.

The 180s are leased by East Coast and subleased to Northern so it's East Coast who need to either arrange for termination of the leasing agreement or sublease to another operator.

The problem with Northern having 180s is the only thing they have that can rescue a failed 180 is another 180.

The 180 diagrams effectively replaced 4 car 156 diagrams, with extra Sprinters being needed to provide the extra Manchester-Preston service following the Windermere-Manchester service being axed to allow the 185s on that service to replace the Voyagers - basically DfT created a mess by wanting Virgin to run more London services.

The only real advantage of using a 180 over 2x156s is the door opening more frequently fails when two units are coupled up and you sometimes get leaking where the corridor connectors meet.  However, a pair of 172s would certainly be more suitable than a 180 and being newer they're less likely to have doors failing to open or leaking.

It was 8x150s to Northern initially (16 vehicles) with 4x156s going from Northern to EMT (8 vehicles).  With 150s having around 20 seats less than a 156 it was effectively a gain of slightly more than 6 vehicles for Northern.

The change is that the FGW 142s were supposed to be replaced by the LO 150s and FGW 142s were supposed to replace the Northern 180s.  Neither Northern or FGW were happy with this as both operators would have got a net decrease in capacity from that cascade. 

Now the London Overground 150s are seen as additional not replacement stock for FGW, while the FGW 142s are seen as additional stock for Northern.

Thanks northwesterntrains for your expalnation.

However, I can't help wondering if that's what will actually happen.

You seem to be forgetting the loco-hauled sets FGW was using (and the SWT 158?), which were actually replaced by the LO sets. Far as i recall, the 142 move north always was entirely dependent on 150s from LM arriving, once the 172s start to be delivered, which are, of course, seriously late.

The 142s were originally due to be returned to Northern between Feb and May 2010 and the 180 sublease originally ran out before the May 2010 timetable change.  The LM cascade would never have happened in time for the May 2010 timetable change even if the 172s hadn't been delayed.  There is a GMITA document that confirms the 142 cascade was due months before the LM 150 cascade.  I'll see if it's still online anywhere.

Weren't the hired in sets FGW had supposed to be cover while the refurbishment program was going ahead and not permanent?

I believe the LM 150's that will be coming west are currently "with" FGW but being sub-leased back to LM, we are very likely to be getting 3 LM 153's aswell.......... watch this space......

What do we want with these hopeless units!

I'm sure Graham could find a use for them ;)

And there are doubtless a million and one documents from DafT et al around somewhere confirming all sorts of other things to do with what stock was going where and when. But stuff happens...

What exactly was FGW going to operate its services with in the intervening period if they really were supposed to have handed back the 142s before LM got its 172s? The LO sets perhaps, but with all the delays at Bombardier finishing Class 377 orders, even before the exhaust issue arose with the LO 172s, they were never going to hit that target for the release of the 142s and GMITA and all other parties involved would have known that way back in 2009.

Bombardier did their level best and got the first 172 out in March last year but we all know what happened next. Since EC didn't at that stage need the 180s back until later in the year for its Lincoln plan, the sky did not fall in. And EC's decision to ditch Lincoln probably saved DfT from having to stump up for yet more loco and coaches to tide someone over into this year.

The first FGW loco-hauled set may have started life as cover during the refresh programme, but the other was to help make up for the loss of SWT services west of Exeter from December 2009.

ummmm quite a bit really when we're currently struggling with capacity! like strengthening trains around Exeter? what a daft post!

Would be better keeping 142s than 153s. Slow underpowered rubbish

The 1641 Temple Meads to Great Malvern was operated by a single class 153 today. Several left behind at Temple Meads, about thirty unable to board at Abbeywood and another dozen or so watched their train leave without them at Bristol Parkway. No doubt a shortage of units again but at least the train ran and well over 100 people got home on time but a few extra units are very much needed, no matter what they are.

Unfortunately as the new government has removed documents issued by the old government from websites and GMPTA became GMITA with a new website.  It means a lot of the documents aren't still online.  However, from some printed documents I have I can confirm that the ORIGINAL plan was for Northern to sub-lease the 180s until December 2009, when they would be replaced by the 142s which would be released by the London Overground cascade.  This was put back to May 2010 and then December 2010.  Only following East Coast's decision not to run Lincoln services was the 180 release put back to May 2011, which allowed FGW to keep the 142s until they got the LM 150s.

The best thing would probably be for one operator, probably East Midlands Trains, to get a 155 fleet consisting of the Northern 155s and 153s reformed in to 2 car units.