Great Western Coffee Shop

A question for the fares-and-routings experts:

I've got to go to Southampton in the next couple of weeks. Looking at the fares in Avantix from Worcester to Southampton there's three separate explicit routes - via Evesham, via Evesham/Stroud and via Salisbury. But there's no "any permitted" fare that would allow me to travel outward via Evesham and Oxford and come back via Salisbury and Bristol (on the conveniently-timed through train).

I'd assumed that there was always an "any permitted" fare. Is Worcester - Southampton unusual for some reason? (and if so, why?). And what ticket(s) do I need to buy if I do want to travel out one way and back the other?

If you travel on a cheaper priced flow (i.e. via Salisbury) with a route Evesham/Stroud ticket (presumably allowing travel via Reading), then you aren't going to have any problems. The Guard isn't going to issue you a negative excess on your ticket!

Assuming this route works like Bristol - Southampton, Any Permitted would allow all sorts of strange combinations.

If you want to travel by different routes for the most economical price, buy the route with the cheapest fare (which I believe is Salisbury) then ask for an excess fare for "change of route in one direction only".  According to The Manual, you should be charged "Half the difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Return ticket, available for immediate travel that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice."  So you should pay half the price between the two fares.

Thanks for that. Do you have a page number in "The Manual" that I can quote when I'm on the train?

It's that or print out this thread.  :)

It is under the section called "The Manual > Excess Fare Procedures > The Excess Fare to charge where there was "opportunity to buy" before boarding the train" and "The Manual > Excess Fare Procedures > The Excess Fare to charge when there was "no opportunity to buy" before boarding the train".

These can be found at:
https://themanual.tso.co.uk/highlight.aspx?file=tm_excess_fare/804.aspx#qa_anchor_1
https://themanual.tso.co.uk/highlight.aspx?file=tm_excess_fare/803.aspx#qa_anchor_1
(Needs a username and password)

Unless you are rail staff you won't be able to have access to 'The Manual' which is now a fully electronic document. Also there is no need to wait until you are on the train. You can buy a change of route excess at the time you purchase your ticket, if purchasing from a station. So in your case, travelling out via Evesham and return via Salisbury, you buy the cheaper route: Salisbury fare and excess the outward portion only to route: Evesham. If you could let me know your travel times (ie Peak, Off Peak, Day or Period Return) then I could work out what your Excess should be.

I have a very dim memory of all of the normal types of tickets (open, offpeak, period return, day return) always being valid on direct trains ... but then I have evidence (from another enquiry) of being offered a more expensive fare on the through route / shorter journey than on a longer route with a change on the way.

If "direct" is always a permitted route, then "via Evesham" tickets would also be valid on direct trains via Salisbury.  I'm thinking that the route that direct trains take is always permitted, even if not using a direct train??

Can some of you knowledgable types let me know if my dim memory is correct, or distorted - Thanks!

A direct train is indeed always a permitted route, as stated in the Routeing Guide, but not necessarily the cheapest fare. An example would be Bristol Temple Meads to London Terminals - the shorter direct journey to Paddington is more expensive than the longer indirect (save for one or two SWT services that don't require a change) service into Waterloo.

For W_P he can of course buy the more expensive 'via Evesham' fare and use it on the direct services 'via Salisbury' if he wishes to travel out on one route and back on the other. However, as I've said upthread, his cheapest option is to buy the 'via Salisbury' fare and just request a change of route excess for one direction. In his case the outward portion.

Worcester Foregate Street to Southampton route Evesham Off Peak Return ^51.00
Worcester Foregate Street to Southampton route Salisbury Off Peak Return ^42.00

To travel via Evesham in one direction only on the route Salisbury Off Peak Return, your change of route excess should be half the difference between the two fares - which is ^4.50. If leaving Worcester after 0900 then a cheaper option is to excess to the route Evesham/Stroud Super Off Peak Return (^49.00) the one direction change of route excess should then be ^3.50.

There are multitude other possibilities depending on when the journeys are being undertaken, whether it is a day or period return that is needed and what class of travel is required. A definitive answer as to what excess should be charged can only be given if these criteria are known.

Many thanks for all of that.

And I thought I had a reasonable idea of fares and ticketing!

Predictably, this is too much for the FGW booking engine, which offers two single fares instead of a return. See screenshot below.

Tell me, how long is the training course? And do you get an MSc?

There are return fares offered on that screeshot, although not, I notice if you want to return using the direct service from Southampton. Booking engines haven't been programmed to allow for the possibility of travelling out by one route and back via another. At least not in this case, where different fares apply. If you are going to purchase online then put Salisbury into your search criteria as a 'via' option and you should then be offered the cheaper return fares.

Judging by that screenshot it is a Day Return that you require. That might complicate matters slightly. There is no Day Return fare for route: Salisbury, but there is for route: Evesham. I believe you can still buy the route: Salisbury Off Peak Return (SVR) priced at ^42.00 and then 'change of route' excess up to the route: Evesham CDR priced ^43.10 (valid out after 0815), paying HALF the difference, i.e. 55p!!

As for the training course. It's all been self taught, so that's why I'll state that I may be wrong. Fares advice often brings up many different prices depending on who's doing the quoting. Unsurprising really, with such a complex system. Staff also can and do get things wrong.

I try my best to be accurate, but even I still get stumped, despite devoting far too much time trying to get to grips with the complexities.

It wouldn't be an MSc it would be a PhD!

Dr. bignosemac. I could go with that! All we'd need then is a Royal College or Learned Society for Rail Fares so I could have letters after my name as well. Maybe Fellow of the Academy of Railway Ticketing Sciences.

Dr. bignosemac, PhD, FARTS

Hmm, well I'd better confess that I've got a PhD (seemed like a handy and legitimate way of postponing repaying my student loan for a few years...) and this stuff still baffles me much of the time ;)

So now were showing off our letters are we?

SDS PAD, BSc (hons) (cantab), MCP, AMBCS, AMIRO, AIITT, OG, FARTS


reminds me of a monty phython sketch where john cleese had so many letters on the desk nameplate that they stretched all the way around the room!

Care to give explanations for those post-nominal letters SDS? I hazarding a guess that OG is 'Old Git'  :P ;) ;D

Bachelor of Science, Honours Degree from Cambridge.
Microsoft Certified Professional
Associate Member British Computer Society
Associate Member Institute of Rail Operatives.
Associate Member of the Institute of IT Training. (lapsed/expired/dunno)
Old Greshamian (its a school).  (A select few schools can use post nominals, eg Marlborough College can use OM.)

In that case may I apologise for the 'Old Git' slight.  :-[ :-X ;) ;D

I have (lapsed) membership of AA*. Am I allowed that as a post-nominal? 

*not the motoring organisation.  ;D

Anoraks Anonymous?

Sounds good. Where do I sign up?  ;D

In which case I'd probably better be entirely honest and say that my post-nominal is DPhil rather than PhD (having gone to one of the small number of institutions which are perverse enough to award doctorates with said non-standard abbreviation, and yes sorry SDS Pad seeing as you're a Cambridge man it was the "other place" ;)). Apart from my undergrad degree I think I can also claim OB, despite being neither O, nor particularly B.

Not to mention GCSE as well. And my esteemed friends and colleagues in the murky world of railway preservation could no doubt provide a few others... ;D

I thought that Cambridge did something weird about only awarding BA degrees, even to scientists?

yeah they do - and you get the masters a year after graduating for doing nothing

Maths, of course, should always be a BA

Hmmn, Readytostart XC, beats all of your BAs and MScs, at least in Scrabble (before you get pedantic I bagsee the triple letter score).

But their courses are usually a year longer (4 years) so effectively an undergraduate masters anyway.