Great Western Coffee Shop

Say I were to buy a day return with restriction B1:

Outward: Mon - Fri timed to dep after 0930
Return: By any train

Does the 0930 restriction also apply to the return journey?  I.e. could I use the return portion without having ever used (or wanted to use) the outward?

Yes because you cannot use a return portion without having used the outward portion first.  So your return journey will always be after 0930.

Really? Where does it say that, then?

Sorry I was getting confused.  You cannot use the outward portion after the return portion has been used.  However it does not change the fact that the validity for the return portion will be the same as the outward. 

Thanks - exactly what I thought

Really? Where does it say that, then?

I forget where, but it is written down somewhere official - I've read it before. There are a few conductors and train managers who will actually check that customers are in possession of the return portion of a ticket when using the outward portion, although whether they're technically permitted to ask to see it I'm not really sure.

With the old open returns where Both portions were valid for a whole month, it was common to be asked for sight of the unused return when you presented an outward portion which was not on the first day of its validity.   If the return had been used then the outward portion was no longer valid (even if it had not been stamped)

I never considered the legal basis for such requests, but the TM's intention was presumably to prevent a fruadster from reusing an unstamped ticket from an earlier journey.

Yes, I know that - it's in the NCoC; it's the new assertion that the "...validity for the return portion will be the same as the outward..." that I'm questioning. After all, if they were the same, why does the Fares Manual say they're different?

I see your point, but if it's not legitimate to use the return portion before the outward portion, then self-evidently it's not permitted to use the return portion before 0930 on a B1-restricted ticket given that the OP mentions a day return - were there a period return with a similar restriction then you could use whatever train you wanted to return on a different day, once the outward portion had been used. So although the restriction may say "by any train", in practice for a day return it's not since you can't use the return before the outward portion.

But Condition C17 (see here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=374#c-use%20of%20tickets)) doesn't actually preclude the use of the return portion before you have used the outward; it just means that once the return portion has been used, the outward portion is no longer valid.

It says outward journey after 0930 return journey any train.  When you make a return journey you must make the outward journey before the return so any return train will depart after 0930 !

The main reason for asking was that for some tickets, Mixing Deck sites are actually saying that the return portion is valid before 0930.

Take London Terminals - Gatwick Airport.  Restriction B1 according to NRE (I've finally worked out a way of obtaining the restriction code from their new website) yet Southern's website quotes this as being valid before 0930 on the return
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4370/gtwv.jpg)

Proceeding through the process, I even get a reservation (not a seat as SN don't do seat reservations) but I would get a reservation coupon.

Hmm... interesting. Just tried a sample journey Bristol TM-Swindon, which also has B1 for an Off Peak Day Return, and was able to book a seat on the 0730 from Swindon.

Shouldn't be allowed, but a seat reservation and a valid travel itinerary.....

I agree with this.  B1 is a restriction only used on an Off Peak Day Return ticket.

Really? Where does it say that, then?

Isn't it just a case of common sense? Return comes after outward in all aspects of life...

Common sense? On the railways? Shome mishtake, shurely?

As TerminalJunkie has already pointed out - all it states, in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, is:


Nothing there about having to actually use the outward part before you use the return part.  And how would anyone know whether you've actually used the outward part or not, on the 'return' journey?  It could have been swallowed up by a barrier machine, never to be seen again!

 ::)

I do believe that in the old NRCoC (06/07?) pre July 2006 (which had a picture of booking office on it) it actually stated that for an outward portion to be valid the return portion must be in your possession.

Just found this on The Manual/Fares and Retail Publications Portal.

Customers travelling with the wrong portion of a Return ticket

The outward portion of a two piece return ticket is not valid for travel unless accompanied by a completely unused return portion. You should assume that any stamper or nipper marks on the return portion of a ticket are evidence of use or part use.

You should refuse to accept the outward portion of a customer's return ticket if:

he/she claims the return portion has been lost or wrongly collected, or
the return portion has been stamped or nipped
You should refuse to accept the return portion of a return ticket if the date and time shown on the ticket indicate that the outward journey could not have been physically and legitimately completed, or part completed, taking into account any applicable general or break of journey restrictions.

If you have refused to accept a return ticket on the grounds described above you should offer to sell the customer the appropriate unrestricted single or return fare for their journey unless you believe they are deliberately attempting to avoid payment. The customer should be advised to address any complaint or claim to your company's Customer Services Manager (as instructed locally).

If the customer refuses to pay or you believe they are deliberately attempting to avoid payment you should withdraw the ticket being presented, issue a free excess ticket for the correct journey details and submit a Report of Irregular Travelling.

Hmm.  ::)

Again, all that that rather dated guidance requires is that the 'return portion' of a return ticket isn't used before the 'outward portion' could have been used: it doesn't say that the 'outward portion' must have been used?

 ::)

But we're not talking about using the outward portion of anything...

I arrive at a station at 0600, and buy an off-peak day return to somewhere else which is subject to a B1 restriction (ie. outward not valid until after 0930, return by any train), so I stick it my wallet, and walk out of the station where someone is waiting to give me a lift to the somewhere else shown on my ticket. I get there at 0700, and finish what I am doing at 0800. There is a train at 0815 back to where I came from.

Why can't I use the return portion of my ticket on this train? And don't just say why, please; I want proof that your not making it up.

Oh, and the Retail Manual doesn't count, as it is a purely internal document for use by retail staff, and therefore isn't part of my contract with the train company.

"you're", surely? ;)

But joking aside, as I understand it, there's nothing to stop you doing just that. I assume, taking the argument a little further, that you could technically purchase a return ticket from your destination to your origin, then toss away the outward portion and use the return as a single ticket to circumvent any time restrictions. I don't think that's explicitly forbidden, but I suspect that circumstances would have to be quite specific (i.e. only making a single journey, and the cost of the off-peak return relative to the peak single) for this to be worthwhile.

I'm struggling to find where I read it before but....

Fairly recently, booking a return ticket, I read in the terms and conditions that you can only use the outward portion of a return ticket, if you still have the return..

So that stops people using the return tickets completely the wrong way round than they were intended.. But doesn't stop someone just using the return.. whenever that is valid to be used..

Try scrolling up a bit...  :P

You should refuse to accept the return portion of a return ticket if the date and time shown on the ticket indicate that the outward journey could not have been physically and legitimately completed, or part completed, taking into account any applicable general or break of journey restrictions.

So reading that, I would say that you could not have legitimately completed the outward journey based on the time restrictions, so therefore the return would become invalid if used before the outward restriction finishes.

here's some screenshots which say im not making it up.
(http://l19.sphotos.l3.fbcdn.net/hphotos-l3-snc6/hs025.snc6/165583_1698156046295_1009695379_1858044_4769129_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs786.ash1/167609_1698156286301_1009695379_1858045_2853378_n.jpg)

Where is that information available to the passenger? As TJ said upthread - The Manual is an internal staff document, so cannot be used as part of the terms and conditions attached to ticket restrictions. To do so would be unfair and the passenger is therefore protected by The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

NRCoC, which is publically available, doesn't disallow it. Also the booking engine examples mentioned upthread allow it, offering the ticket for sale and including a travel itinerary and seat reservation/specific train. Therefore we have another loophole. Fair avoidance not fair evasion. Well found Brucey.  ;)

It seems to me that this is another example where the conditions of carriage have not kept up - rather like the maximum sizes of luggage, which are stuck in a Brief Encounter time-warp.

These conditions assume that the return ticket is a 1" x 2" piece of pasteboard where the outward and return halves are physically part of the same ticket, and where you tear off the outward half.

Whoever has the job of maintaining the conditions of carriage needs to get out more.

The heading in the extract from the manual isn't very accurate, is it.

The first subparagraph and the bullet points describe using the outward coupon either without the return, or with an already used return, so the heading should describe this, eg 'Passenger travelling on outward journey without a valid return portion, or with the return portion already used'.

The second subparagraph is a different situation entirely, so it should also have a new heading, such as 'Passenger travelling on the return leg of a journey before the outward leg can have been completed' or something like that...

Paul

 

For goodness sake, why is almost everyone so instant these days that if something isn't written down in black and white then it doesn't count and that you have "them" on a "technicality". It really is quite straight forward - the clue is in the name of the ticket.

Look, when a passenger buys a return ticket, they are buying a service to transport them outward from Station A to Station B and then to return them from Station B to Station A. It is surely self evident that one can not return from somewhere before they could have possibly arrived. Earlier in the thread TerminalJunkie gave an example of getting a lift to Station B and then travelling. In what way would that change the agreement one has with TOC to take you somewhere and back again? The fact you got a lift is nothing to do with the TOC and doesn't change what they have to provide one jot.

The NCoC doesn't say you can't use a ticket more than once*, only that it can't be used after it's expiry date. Using the same logic as some others, one could argue that the lack of a rule within the NCoC means it's OK to reuse a return ticket 50 times before it's expiry date. It plainly isn't.

On the other hand, if the booking engine says you can use the 0730 from Swindon, then you've got implied permission from the TOC to use the ticket in that way, for that particular journey on that particular day. My guess is that this simply an oversight as no one as foreseen the need to put the rule into RJIS to stop a booking that in the past would have captured by good old human common sense.

Cheers,
TLM

* At least, I hope it does. I skimmed through it and didn't see anything. If it does, I'm going to look mighty foolish and would gladly accept correction!

You are indeed right with your analysis TLM. It shouldn't be allowed to use a return portion of a CDR in such a way. Logic and common sense would say so. But if, as you say, a "booking engine says you can use the 0730 from Swindon", then as you quite rightly point out, the passenger has got implied permission to legitimately make the journey.

Booking engines sometimes allow you to over-travel to the London Terminal on a Not London ticket to come back 1 stop. Doesn't mean its a valid route.

Fair point, but that's poor customer service from the railway industry as a whole (putting things politely), isn't it? Putt yourself in the position of a passenger who had used a booking engine (which supposedly applies the routeing guide) to buy a ticket for their intended journey only to find out that the ticket they had been sold wasn't valid, depite them doing everything in their power to buy the correct product: wouldn't you be slightly piqued?! ;)

That wasn't the point of my post.

I was simply pointing out that the subheading in the manual doesn't match what the article is on about. That's just bad English, but it also means that when the railway wants to challenge someone who is trying to use a technicality, the manual becomes open to argument. 

Paul

I must be honest here, I rarely buy [full] tickets and have had free travel for most of my life. Be it like now TOCNE, or as a nominee or as a dependant.

But I would also use common sense and see "Not London"/ "Not Underground"/ "Not on a Tuesday on an even month in the lunar cycle which follows an odd month". And realise what it means (obviously the last one virgin are yet to introduce).

And yet you have a problem with the words 'By any train'...

In conjunction with other rules....

I think this thread and others (e.g. the Heart of Wessex ranger thread) are excellent candidates for demonstrating what a mess our fares system is in.

We may understand many of the technicalities, either because we work for the railway or as regular customers (with an interest) look at the restrictions regularly enough to understand them.  But this simply isn't the case for most people.  They will believe what the TOC website tells them (and why shouldn't they?) and what they read on the NRE website.

Take the "By any train" example.  It would be very simple for "After 0930" to be inserted into the return restrictions.  So why not do that?  Although it may seem obvious to some, I don't think it should be assumed that the return should be used after the outward portion unless this is written down somewhere.

And the Heart of Wessex Ranger thread just goes to show that ticket restrictions are different depending on where you find them (possibly due to outdated information not being removed/updated).

My personal opinion is that restrictions should be made simpler and also printed on the ticket.  Something like "Any Permitted, See Restrictions" at present, would be better as "After 0930" or "Not between 1600 and 1900".  If the restriction doesn't fit on the ticket, it shouldn't be allowed.