Great Western Coffee Shop

From the Western Gazette (http://www.thisissomerset.co.uk/news/Woman-train-spite-ticket-error/article-3071648-detail/article.html):

Hmm, a somewhat mealy-mouthed response on FGW's behalf by Mr Ratchford methinks. One thing that really gets on my t*ts is when people apologize for "any" inconvenience, as if there's a chance that being booted off a train by a prat who didn't know the rules could possibly not be inconvenient, not to mention distressing or downright infuriating... Apologizing for "the" inconvenience that was self-evidently caused might be a start, but if the facts of the case are indeed as reported in the article then surely an FGW spokesman could do better than this!

One fact in the story is slightly wrong. The Anytime Day Return is ^14.40, not ^16.00.

The 'ticket inspector' (was it an RPI or the conductor?) appears to have grossly over-reacted by calling the police, unless of course she did or said something else that would warrant police attendance. How difficult is it to call up restriction details on Avantix?

There are three different times for Off Peak Day validity on this route to Bridgwater. From Bristol TM, Bedminster and Parson Street it is 0800. From Yatton, Nailsea & Backwell and Highbridge it is 0930. From Worle, Weston Milton and Weston-super-Mare it is 0920.

Given that there are so many differences it should be behoven of the 'ticket inspector' to double check what the customer is telling him/her. I can only assume that the 'ticket inspector' decided that Bedminster had the same restriction as Nailsea and Yatton without bothering to double check.

Whilst (as always) we only having one side of the story here, it appears from Ms Mendosa's comments that this wasn't an isolated incident as she had nearly been overcharged before. One wonders how many passengers in the past have paid up without question?

I, too, have had recent experience of being quoted incorrect fares on board. A conductor not believing an Off Peak Day could possibly be valid at 0635. However, in this instance, at my request, the conductor checked her Avantix and all was fine. Conductor doing a ticket check on my next train also had to consult his Avantix because he also thought An Off Peak Day couldn't possibly be valid at 0723 off Bristol. At least he warned his colleague who took over duties at Westbury. This new conductor then commented to me that he too was unaware that you can travel to Waterloo via Salisbury as early as that on an Off Peak Day.

This lack of knowledge is worrying, especially if staff are not going to do a simple check and will instead resort to throwing pax off the train. I appreciate that retailing is down the list of priorities for a conductor or TM and that the ticketing system is complex, but when you have the ability to check validity so easily on Avantix there really is no excuse for escalating a situation as appears to have happened in Ms Mendosa's case.

Fair point about 'the' versus 'any', and I agree the statement as quoted is a bit abrupt, especially given the nature of the story.

The actual quote I gave to the journo was longer:

"Ms. Mendosa was eligible for an off-peak ticket, so this was a complete mistake. We're sorry for any inconvenience caused and have given Ms. Mendosa fare vouchers for future travel as a goodwill gesture. We have also begun an internal investigation to ensure this doesn't happen again."

The Bristol Evening Post version uses the full quote: http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Train-firm-sorry-ticket-mix/article-3070754-detail/article.html

Thank you for that response, MediaJohn, and for letting us know exactly what action FGW took in response to this rather worrying incident. It is most unusual to have a response from the other side of the story, as it were, here on the forum. Surprising and very welcome.

On behalf of the moderator and admin team, may I extend a warm welcome to Coffee Shop forum.  :)

I think that in instances like this there shoudl actually be punative action taken against the TOC.  There needs to be a regulator to fine FGW thousands of pounds (taken out of a bond deposited at the start of the franchise)  when this kind of thing happens.  The TOCs will not improve unless they are hit where it hurts.     

Tim, for gods sake take a reality check!! The guy on the train made a mistake, perhaps he was new staff??  Who knows but it's hardly surprising considering the complexity of ticket restrictions which seems to provide endless opportunities for discussion on this forum!! I would be very surprised if you can find one conductor/train manager who works for FGW (or indeed any other TOC) who is completely 100% aware of all ticket restrictions for the area for which they work. The system is just far too complex for any individual to have that sort of knowledge - unless they're fanatical! Personally if i was in this woman's situation I would have paid the fare and then taken it up with the company concerned - I wouldn't have gone running to the local newspaper! Still, if you want to fine the company thousands then ok, that's your perogative - but they'll get it back at the next fares increase!   

All the relevant restrictions are in the Avantix machines but the company fails quite badly in monitoring how staff go about doing tickets, for example, in the guards team briefs there is very little mostly nothing regarding tickets, we are given a weekly retail circular which is usually full of stuff that isn't relevant to FGW, I personally think that all staff who sell/check tickets should be tested regularly on certain things, I'm pretty sure that RPO's and RPI's get refreshers on Penalty fares at regular intervals.

It makes me laugh how one person kept issuing Y-P discounts for small fares before 1000 and all the other staff in the area got grief for not doing so, everyone kept telling the local manager but nothing was done.

Too many guards use the excuse that tickets aren't their first priority etc.... well yes, agreed, not the first part of the job but it is PART of the job!

If management are reading this then do something about it!

Exeter, the guy on the train made a mistake. Agreed. But he had a simple solution - check his Avantix. Involving the Police was way beyond necessary, as was subjecting Ms Mendosa to the wrath of other passengers.


Incurring further cost and time to the passenger. Great solution. Not. This is overcharging and it is unexceptable. Whilst it may be a one off, I fear that if this 'ticket inspector' believed he was right (he did call the Police, remember) then this won't have been the first time he's overcharged somebody on this route. Ms Mendosa pointed out to the press that she had nearly been overcharged on a previous occasion. Passengers should have confidence that they are going to be sold the right ticket at the right price. Ones that know already what they should pay, as Ms Mendosa did, should not be subject to such a humiliating experience.


A silly argument. By that rationale, we should not fine TOCs for delays, safety breaches etc.

So, sorry Exeter, I'm in agreement with Tim on this one, FGW deserve some punitive action. Hopefully the bad publicity will be enough....

EDIT: I have referred to the 'ticket inspector' in this thread as 'he'. Please read that as 'he/she'. There's no mention in the quoted news items whether the 'ticket inspector' was male or female.

MediaJohn, welcome to the forum and thanks for the clarification! I did wonder if the hack involved had clipped the quote from FGW, since it really did seem rather threadbare for the situation as reported; wonder if they were genuinely struggling for space or they were just selective to help with their preferred narrative of FGW as the villain in the piece...


Quite possibly true, but a basic tenet of any kind of customer service training is that when in doubt you check your facts before kicking someone off a train they're perfectly entitled to be on. If for some reason you can't get the definitive answer (despite the fact that you're issued with an avantix machine that will tell you what it is in fairly short order) then you err on the side of the customer. You certainly do not call the police on them and use the train's PA system to humiliate them in front of all the other passengers. In all honesty I'm amazed that you're trying to defend the actions of the staff member here. If you genuinely think that in Ms Mendosa's shoes you truly would meekly put up with that sort of treatment and take things up with the company later then I admire your stoicism, but there's not many of us (myself included) who would put up with it.

OK, Exeter.

I am not saying that staff are not sometimes allowed to make mistakes (or that the occassional lapse shoudl result in the guard being sacked or anything).  We are all allowed to make a mistake.  What I think is wrong and ought to be changed is the present one-sided nature of it all.  A customer makes a mistake and they get stung for a higher fare, PFed or prosecuted, whereas if the TOC makes a mistake they issue an appology and all is forgiven.   I bet they don't even get a preformance penalty because they will put the TM caused delay down to "passenger action"

ticket mis-selling is rife throughout the industry.  If a utility company did it as much as the TOCs do they would be absolutely clobbered by their regulator with multimillion pound fines.

As for any fine due to the TOC coming out of fare increases, that is a concern and why I suggested that they deposit a "good behaviour" bond at the start of the franchise.  I am not sure that would work, but we all know that companies respond to financial incentives, so it seems prefectly reasonable to incentivise them to keep to the rules.  Might also be an incentive for them to simplify the rules too.

i am aware of exactly what happened and who was involved and lets just say the press as per usual do not give full story there is more to it than has been reported.


edited as i did not realise i had broken forum rules apologies for that.

Change much appreciated, thanks ... there are times that the all the various things we have to follow in running a forum seem almost as complicated as the ticketing system ;D ... some are obvious, but others are not ...

These sorts of errors seem to occur regularly, and of course sometimes the passenger is wrong either through their own fault, or from having been wrongly advised by railway staff.

I believe that the present system is far too complicated and beyond the understanding of many employees and customers.

I believe that the fares system should be very substantialy simplified, with only three different fares available (in each class of travel) for any journey.
These should be known as peak, off peak, and bargain and be identified by the colours red, yellow and green on the ticket and in the timetable.
Peak would be similar to the present full fare
Off peak would be about 60% of the peak fare
Bargain would be about 30% of the peak

To contain the greed of TOCs, peak fares would be restricted to no more than 25% of the timetabled services, and bargain fares would have to be offered on at least 25% of services, the remainder being being off peak.

When two routes are available, such as via London or not via London different fares for the two routes could be charged, but still only 3 fares for each route.

The present system brings the railway into dis-repute, a great many dont travel because it is too complicated. Just look at some of the lengthy threads on these forums regarding fares.

The red, yellow, or green fare should be charged according to the time of travell, not the time of booking or ticket purchase.
At present it costs several times more to turn up and go, then to book in advance, for the same train.
Passengers who miss a connection can be "fined" hundreds of pounds for travelling on another off peak train than the one booked, why ?

Likewise at present, full fare customers often have to stand whilst those with discounted tickets purchased in advance get seats.
Under my proposed system, all tickets on the same train, between the same stations, should be the same price. No question of ANY discounted fares on busy rush hour services, and likewise no need to pay the full peak time fare for off peak travel, event at the last minute.

Not sure I agree with all of your proposal, but some kind of vastly simplified system needs to be put in place. 

There is talk of "too much micromanagement" in the industry which would argue against that kind of simplification,  but to my mind there are too kinds of micromanagement.  There is the kind that gives protection to customers which should still be retained and things like the complicated internal money-go-round that could be scrapped.

What is your benchmark 'Peak fare'? Is it priced according to distance, popularity of route, origin or destination being popular, type of rolling stock, or some other criteria. Also where does government (national and local) subsidy come into the equation?

If this benchmark is too high, then many leisure travellers could be priced off the railways, even at 60% or 30%.

Are these trains red, yellow and green throughout their journey or are the bands time dependent or origin/destination dependent?

If they are banded throughout their journey then that would be grossly unfair on passengers boarding at 11am at the final stop having to pay a peak fare because the trains started at its origin at 0700.

What if the bands are time dependent - for instance you have a 'peak' until 9am? Passenger A boarding at Anytown at 0855 pays a peak fare to Megacity, Passenger B boarding at Smalltown at 0905 pays only 60% of what Passenger A pays less a bit more for the slightly shorter journey. Passenger A then realises it is cheaper to drive to Smalltown (inc fuel and parking costs) and get on the train there. Clogging up local roads, and as more people get wise to this, no one uses the train between Anytown and Smalltown at this time.

If the fare bands are origin/destination dependent then you may still have folks realising it is cheaper to drive part way and then pick up their train when it has become an 'Off Peak' or 'Bargain'.

What about trains that are nominally at 'Off Peak' or 'Bargain' times but are popular for other reasons like use by shoppers on a Sunday or to holiday destinations? Do you price these at 'Peak' to discourage use?

You say there are to be NO discounts on busy rush hour services? What about cross country services that are busiest through the Midlands - are these to be Yellow or Green trains until an arbitrary point - become Red, then revert to Yellow or Green at some other point?


Who decides that? Some government mandarin far removed from the operation of timetables and services, or the TOC who could easily manipulate the services they run to maximise revenue (and profit) against that 25/50/25 split? What about where the loadings throughout the day do not neatly match that 25/50/25 split? A TOC forced to stick rigidly to this ratio would soon start manipulating the timetable for its benefit, rather than the passengers.

How would that change under your system, particularly at 'Peak' times on commuter services?

So, sorry. Too many issues to cover with such a 'simplified' system. A nightmare to introduce and probably massively un-passenger friendly as well.

I agree that we have a complex system at present and it is one that needs tidying up, but your system, broadgage, is rather too utopian. Sorry to shoot it down so comprehensively. Particularly as I can't offer anything more than to say that the current system 'needs tidying up.'  :)

Written before I saw Dr BNM's reply ... I'll still post as this may add at least some snippets

Logic and simplicty says rail fares should all the the same price per person per mile, mileage to be worked out as the crow flies and tickets valid by any route that a reasonable person might use (without him / her taking an odd route to make an intermediate appointment) ... then you get into the "but"s.

Broadgage - you've chosen to add a commercial peak / regular / marginal time bias, and a routing wrinkle on the ultimate simplity I started from.  Problem is ... even with those apparently simple wrinkles you'll get all sorts of wheezes and anomolies.

Let's take the 16:49 from Great Malvern to Southampton.  It starts quiet(?) so offpeak from Great Malvern, but then at Worcerster at 17:02 it becomes quite lively, and it's a peak train through Cheltenham and Gloucester to Swindon.  By the time it leaves there at 18:44, it's offpeak again, and by the time it's the 19:40 from Westbury to Southampton (where it arrives at 20:48, it's bargain.  Do you do the fare based on where people join?   Where they leave?   The most or least expensive zone they travel through?  For each leg added up? ... or make the whole train peak as it runs some peak sections (so the 20:12 Salisbury to Southmapton is peak, but the 19:49 service which starts from Salisbury would be bargain).  And if you charge based ona whole journey, do you allow split tickets? 

To some extent I'm playing "Devil's Advocate" here ... I would love to see the system genuinely fair, straightforward and easy to understand.  But as soon as you start moving away from fixed, per mile, fare for all you get complications ... and fixed, per mile for all would probably be a loading and marketing disaster.

I note that you're proposing just three fares.  You may upset a few people ...
* Daily travellers would rather like to be able to buy season tickets at lower fares.
* Families with clutches of children might like a reduction for the children.
* Groups eligable for railcards might feel hard done by even though you're offering true equality
* We'll let staff on duty travel for free of course (has the driver got a ticket? ;-) ) but you may have a bit of a storm from staff travelling when not 'clocked on'
* And how about the tourist trade which currently sells tickets and passes to nonresidents at crazy-low prices.

Problem is ... we could probably work out a much fairer system ... but it's hard to see how we would get there from where we are today. 

The $64,000 question is "if the system were changed to a flat fare, what would the price be?".  I understand that the curent rail traveller pays an average of 19p per mile, so that's a fare of ... oh, gosh - I guess the current Swindon to London Season ticket holder might not be as unhappy as I suspected!

What's the thinking behind the subtle changes that you have made to your original proposal, broadgage?

This problem of 'when is the peak' is presumably exactly why offpeak fares are still available on XC all day (0500 onwards to be accurate) if you are travelling from southwest of Bristol or south of Reading to points north of Derby and somewhere equivalent ??? up in the NW.

Paul

Isn't there a scheme for investigating such ticketing queries after the event, perhaps I have mis-understood but couldn't the ticket inspector have withdrawn the ticket and submitted it for irregularity checks (TIR?).
Then quietly and peacefully the matter could have been investigated and an invoice sent to the lady subsequently if it was found to have been an off peak ticket used on a peak service.

As an enthusiast I am always a little concerned by the lack of knowledge of how to check and issue the appropriate fare on the portable machines and ineed even at the station.
Recently I bravely attempted to buy a rail rover ticket from the excess fares window at Reading, while the little office is equipped to have a full ticket machine instead the clerk was using a portable machine.
I managed to teach the clerk how to get to the rover enquiry menu (not easy talking through the window trying to look at the screen side on), only to find that the fare was not listed, fortunately the Cross Country conductor was straight on the case and using apparently the same machine got to the same menu where the prices were listed.
It left me wondering if part of the problem could be that not all machines are fully programmed or if perhaps each rail company has its own setup? 

On local journies, the train would be classified as red, yellow or green throughout in the interests of simplicity.
This is clearly unreasonable for long distance trains which would have to be different colours for differing parts of the trip.

Some standing by those who have paid the most expensive fare might be unavoidable, but would be reduced by not offering any discounted tickets on peak hour trains. If it is hlighted in red, then full fare only.
I dont think it reasonable for full fare payers to have to stand on very busy services because the seats are booked by those with discounted tickets.
"if a train is expected to be full and standing, dont sell discounted tickets"
Likewise, on a service that is expected to be lightly loaded, no one should be expected to pay the full peak fare, even if they arrive at the last minute.

As regards families with numerous children, I am sure that they would like even greater discounts, but I would not give any more.
It could be argued that the discounts for children are already excesive ! they pay a much reduced fare but still expect a seat. Very young children do not pay at all, but are often placed in seats whilst fare payers stand.

If the train is expected to be full and standing, then it would be red, full fare only.
If expected to be fairly busy, then yellow.
If expected to be lightly used, then green.

The TOCs would be allowed to re-classify trains as needs change, but only at timetable changes not whenever they fancy it.

On very local services I doubt that my proposal would help at all.
On longer distance routes though it would help.
Take as an example, the very busy 18-03 and 19-03 from Paddington. At present some full fare passengers have to stand to Taunton or beyond, whilst seats are taken by those holding discounted tickets. Under my proposal these services would be full fare only, no discounted tickets except perhaps West of Plymouth.

You'll have a fairly empty train then. The solution is simple, get a reservation on the service you wish to travel on.