Great Western Coffee Shop

We sometimes worry about tickets not being checked ... I've been away for a few days and returned today - counted 9 ticket checks (manual or gate) on the rail part of the journey ... and I suspect this isn't a record.

Norwich - Gateline
On Train (near Stowmarket)
Liverpool Street - National Rail Gateline
Liverpool Street - Tube Gateline
Paddington - Tube Gateline
Paddington - National Rail Gateline
On train (between London and Reading)
On train (between Didcot and Swindon)
On train (between Swindon and Chippenham)

Teatime HST down from Plymouth today - no check.

Passengers sat in the aisles, vestibules rammed, 15 mins down at Penzance.

Not much relief on the way down as numbers leaving were matched by those boarding. 

...on a train as you have described Safety of the train is of more importance than checking tickets

Did the person checking tickets ask for "all tickets" or was it just the willy-nilly "tickets from x"?

The latter is something that really bugs me.  "Tickets from Bristol Temple Meads" whilst I'm sat there thinking "you only boarded this train at Temple Meads, how do you know who has a valid ticket?"

normally because the departing guard has actually given you a verbal handover of the train telling you of any problems and saying i have done tickets up to Bristol ..if the tickets have been checked by a colleague who tells me they are all in order why on earth wolud i want to do them again

And of those travelling without tickets always pipe up and confess when asked!  ::)
All very well taking the attitude that a particular train may have already been fully checked or that a particular station has barriers but there's nothing to stop anyone buying a ticket from RDG-RDW and then getting a free ride to a station of their choice!

Absolutely!

Back in the day, BR's ticket examining instructions explicitly required that following a staff changeover a full ticket check was required.

From Paddington - complete check
From Didcot - complete check
From Swindon - "Tickets from Reading and Swindon"; note that I had dropped back a train - I'd been on the 11:48 Paddington to Cheltenham Train and dropped back at Swindon to the 12:00 ex Paddington.   As my ticket was not from either Reading or Swindon (it was actually from Norwich!) I'm unclear as to whether I was being asked to present it ...

But, really, unpredicable checking patterns are probably the most effective!

Don't you think that the checker meant "Tickets please from those boarding at Didcot or Swindon?.....I do!

Regardless of all that tho.. as as been mentioned.. that requires people to "fess up" as to where they got on... or keep quiet and travel free.. i've never understaood those type of ticket checks...

It's interesting to see ticket checks on the Salisbury to Waterloo Mainline... I get normally get checked once between Waterloo and Salisbury (SWT) and then left to my devices, but rarely checked between Salisbury and Westbury. Although in saying that, I was ticket checked between Salisbury and Warminster the other day and was even asked to present my disabled railcard...!

FGW I seem to note in First Class are quite heavy on ticket checks between BRI and PAD on peak services too, you'll often get asked for a ticket by the Customer Host and then the TM a bit later in the journey.

I was always told that Customer Hosts cannot insist on seeing your tickets as they are not "authorised persons" i.e. not revenue trained.

obviously the TM is.

probably true, but they can ask and if you don;t show they can fetch the TM.

And refuse to offer you their First Class freebies!

Travelling back from Southampton to Reading on Saturday night, we did not get checked once! Even though the TM walked through the carriage, asking for tickets from thouse that had joined, dispite getting out tickets out every time, not once did he slow down enough to check them. Its no wonder so many people get away with travelling without correct tickets and therefore putting the fares up for the rest of us.

That's interesting, I once took the direct Frome to London Paddington to Reading, Frome's ticket office closes around lunchtime and there is no TVM there. So when the train arrived I spoke with the TM before boarding and asked to buy a ticket. I said i'd be in First Class.

When the Customer Host came round with the trolley, she asked me for my ticket, so I explained that I had told the TM I needed to buy one when I got on at Frome, That Frome was unstaffed and I would be purchasing a First Class Ticket. She refused to serve me anything until I had a ticket. Now I don't have a problem with that, what I had a problem with is the fact that the TM didn't get to me before I alighted at Reading!! So I ended up queuing for 20 minutes at excess fares in Reading before walking rather brisky and taking an XC service onto Banbury, where (no offence to any XC staff ;) ) the train was full and standing, no First Class host and the trolley inaccessible due to the overcrowding! >:( To say I was p*ssed (and bluddy thirsty) at this point, was an understatement! ::)

Who could you mean?

Interestingly on a recent morning trip to York ( from Doncaster -32 miles in 20 minutes) my outward trip was on East Coast where I offered tea or coffee within a few minutes of departure, no First Class ticket requested by Hosts, and no subsequent ticket check by the guard either. Returning by XC I WAS asked to show my ticket to the Host, but then served a drink and offered biscuits and a hot bacon roll.

Seems, like most personal services, to vary with the individual staff member.

If i took over a busy  HSTservice from Bristol and decided on doing a full ticket check towards Bath by the time i had a conversation with the gent who said my tickets just been checked and i explained i needed to check it again, waited for the student to find her railcard and explained that that is your seat reservation not the ticket to a lady i would be lucky to actually show my face in coach B by the time we were passing Bath Goods, just because your sat in coach E and getting off in Swindon dont assume no ticket checks are taking place

Dont forget the saga louts who can never find their tickets, yet when you dont want to see them they insist on showing you.

ah yes the very same who cannot quite seem to understand ticketing restrictions

Bit unfair on the Saga louts there SDS and dog box. I like to think that I still have all my faculties with me, but even I, as a relatively sprightly 37 year old, occasionally get flummoxed by ticketing restrictions.

... as do FGW staff themselves: see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6795.msg67525#msg67525  ::) :( ;D

Tickets not checked this morning on Reading to Basingstoke..........  What are the guidelines? Surely FGW must be loosing money on the the people who get on and off at open stations (On at Reading West off at Bramley for instance) If this fare jumpers were caught and reduced, would this not help to keep my ticket price down?

Last night i travelled on the 17:27 Totnes to London Paddington and took up my reserved seat in the quiet coach the TM appeared to be doing ticket checks throughout the train but everytime he got to the quiet coach he just walked through not doing checks i guess not wanting to disturb the ambience but very strange. Has anybody else seen this before?

Or more likely you didn't look dodgy or the TM saw the door of the TGS and rushed to get through it as quickly as possible!!!!

Ahh.... a TM that is like the the LTV drivers, BTP Officers, signallers, Swindon control and management that you have dealings with SDS Pad.

Is it really necessary to continually criticise those around you, even if it may sometimes be in jest?

Then there's the passengers. Heaven forfend if they are in their autumn years or a bicycle owner....

But sureley bignosemac, by highlighting whats going wrong, its a gental prod to those who can change things. I for one think that our tickets should be checked on every journey, that way, fare dodgers will be caught and thus, help keep the cost of our tickets down.

Also, I would imagine a hint on this forum is better than an employee being pulled up infront of their superior, for a let smacking? Perhaps people just get to lax in their duties?

As an aside, my ticket was not checked this morning, though guard did walk through for anyone who required a ticket, from Mortimer or Bramley.

On the more general note that we've moved to on posting tactics ... it's so easy to get in a mode where you talk about the bad / poor and never mention the good, or a mode where you critisise what you perceive as poor, without acknowledging that there might be a wider picture and a reason for something.  But if you slip into this mode (as I believe folks like the South Hampshire Rail Users Group have done), you end up having your valid criticisms devalued on the basis that "it's just him/her again", and you end up upsetting people who really could be very much your allies, but feels you don't appreciate their worth / position / values.

"Together, we can often work so well - even if our interests sometimes diverge.  But if we set ourselves up as an organisation which is doing nothing but sniping where we perceive problems, we are furthering the interests of third parties at the expense of our own"

Edit to add summary line

THe way to do this is to work with the company,. identifying the problems & suggesting ways to overcome them!

Indeed it is, Chris ...

Or at least that can be a part of the answer.   I'm not going to "hijack" this thread into a TransWilts campaigning one, but you need to bear in mind that at times a lot of activity in the form of constructive suggestions can lead to the company seeing something for which there is a public demand - which is good - but them perhaps they also see the opportunity to use that public pressure to use strong arm tactics to go for a substantially increased subsidy if they're to do xxxxx.    Rather that look at a specific rail case which could get very emotive, I'll point you towards some of the goings on on bus services around the UK, and radio 4 programs like "face the facts" which have highlighted most of the major bus operators and how they have managed to do so well out of things like this.

A suggestion made by Jacobs in 2004 as something that should be done was costed / quoted in December 2005 at 30k per annum; the price has now risen to over 300k per annum.  I'm fully aware of inflation, I'm fully aware that the scope for return in the final winddown of the current franchise is limited, but I've also got a suspision that part of it's about maximising what the public purse may pay.  We happen to live in a nice looking house, and there's a certain class of builder / handyman who'll take a look at the place and inflate his quote to reflect what he thinks he can get us to pay, above what the job really costs.   And that has happened on the buses.  Do you think, Chris, it may happen on the trains too?   What are your thoughts on how we should get the best transport deal for the public, or would you think that the best answer is going to be the best answer for the operator too?

Depends on your (probably political) point of view. Your own best chance is to get a service requirement written into the next Great Western franchise bid document, I reckon.

There's the current lack of rolling stock too, so you can't expect any kind of peak service. What's a realistic passenger loading on say a two-hourly off-peak service, plus what you get currently in the peak?

We're looking to (re)gain and retain an appropriate service - the retain being every part as important as the regain - so getting something appropriate written in to the mainstream franchise is very much part of the strategy; (thinking about that already!). But can I correct you on one point, Chris, for the record.  You write:


It's arguable what we get in the morning peak (technically the 06:30 from Chippenham is a "peak" train) but the train is back on the main London - Bristol line by 07:27.   In the evening, there is no peak service at all ... offpeak starts at 18:30, I believe, and there's nothing off the main line until 19:01.

Now ... if there was a train that got into Chippenham between 08:00 and 08:30, and one that left again between 17:30 and 18:30, they would be peak services.  There's nothing within half an hour, though.  The SLC2 in the franchise DOES allow FGW to move one of the trains to those time slots -  they're within the allowed range and indeed, I understand, the intent of the SLC2 was to provide just such a peak service so one helpful suggestion to overcome some of the problems, even without providing extra services, is that they should do just that.

But as I pointed out, without the DfT finding additional stock, they don't have any available to run at those times currently....

Yes, I read you making that point Chris  ;)  ... and chat with a few people too ...

You didn't answer my question re your likely off-peak loadings / demand?

Can you realistically make a case for the TOC to start an off-peak service when they *do* have stock availability? Maybe that's a starting point currently?

Yes ... lots of work done on that front :) ... although one of the most difficult things to evaluate with the scenario you're painting is the effect of running an offpeak service still with an 'orrid 'ole in the peak.   And one of the most interesting things is to consider how it would do if another operator were running a true peak service.  Done nicely, it should be a "win, win" if the various folks can work it together!

Fine, don't EVER ask me again what the real reason for problems, delays, etc is or are. Have you ever considered that I might have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder) hmm. Dont judge people on what they post till you have the full picture.

Should you be in a customer-facing role if you suffer from that disorder?

I'm somewhat concerned at where we may be headed with this thread, so I'm locking it to think it through / give the moderator team an opportunity to consider.

This thread has generated a lot of interest on ... and away from ... the thread itself.  And I'm left looking at inputs from moderators discussing it, and messages by email and p.m. too. On one hand, I wring my hands and say "I wish we could all agree" and on the other hand I celebrate the discussions, the fact that we share diverse views and sometimes ask those awkward (and sometimes uncomfortable questions).  And - as seems almost inevitable on the rare occasions that a thread goes pear-shaped, I find myself looking at one, or a handful of posts, and wondering how it was meant to be taken ... and regretting that someone has taken it in a way that wasn't intended; that has certainly happened on this thread, as my mailbox confirms.  So - Folks - posters on this thread - you're a darned good bunch; I don't think anyone's deliberatley upsetting anyone else, though obviously there are different views.  So, please, let's draw a line and move on.  I probably will tell on my blog, sometime, how I took my first job out of college to be customer facing precisely because I hated dealing with people I didn't know and it was a challenge - an issue for me that needed resolving.  Today, I still have a far thinner skin that most though I wouldn't describe it as a something that holds me back - more something to be nurtured and turned round if I can for the good of caring.

OK ... Here comes that line

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As I recall we were talking "how many ticket checks" - or had we completed the subject?

Getting back on track, what are the rules regarding what a guard should do on a train regarding checking tickets? I have not been checked once this week?

The fundamental rule is that operational and safety-critical duties always take precedence over examining tickets. Common sense will tell you that this rule is of course entirely correct, and it couldn't be any other way. However it does have the unfortunate side-effect of giving the sub-set of staff who would rather avoid contact with their passengers at all costs, and therefore don't check tickets or indeed leave the back cab or office, a get-out clause; they can claim that they weren't checking tickets on a given service because they were dealing with some kind of operational issue.

Presumably guard's managers will notice patterns of behaviour, so I would assume that if a particular guard is noted never to be checking tickets then some action would be taken. What I'm not sure of is how vigorously FGW go after the guards who are too lazy to do revenue, and what the potential implications for industrial relations would be - I can see the press release from the RMT now, shreiking about 'greedy fat cat privateer' train operators putting their profits before the safety of passengers were a guard to be dismissed for habitually ignoring revenue duties.

A further complication, although one that applies in an ever-smaller number of cases, is that I think there may still be a few long-serving staff on the system who are working under the conditions of their original BR contracts. Some of these staff may have been employed before the duties of guards and ticket examiners were merged together into the "conductor" role. In fact, if you go back far enough, there was a time many years ago when ticket eamination by guards was strictly forbidden.

Is it the train manager's duty to check the tickets (ie part of his/her job descripion) Also I would have thought it compulsory that a train manager should walk up and down the coaches at least once an hour.

I only say this as the other day a bloke plonked himself next to me (on the other side of the aisle) and then informed me that he had a heart condition and could I keep an eye on him? In fairness the train manager checked on him twice during the journey but if he hadn't have done the ticket checks he wouldn't have been aware of this. (This was after after informing the passenger with the dickie heart that he had tickets for the next train and was on the wrong service so he had to pay an extra ^35!?! :D)

The blunt answer to that is that is is certainly not rail staff's responsibility to act as minders or nannies to passengers. It's good that the train manager did check on the passenger a couple of times. However, if you're seriously suggesting that the train manager would have been culpable had he not walked through the train then something happened to the passenger that's complete nonsense! He went above and beyond, it's certainly not his job to provide some sort of medical support to a passenger who really shouldn't be travelling if they're that unwell.

Thanks Insprector Blakey,
It worries me on two fronts about the fact that its the same guards that don't check the tickets. The first is fare dodgers are responsable partly for fare increases. Also I have been on a train at night, when trouble has kicked off (normally with a drunk) and could have done with it being resolved by the guard, but of course they do not come out of their little cubby hole then. Some times I have wondered why they bother having CCTV, it only seems to act as a warning for them to stay hidden.

I know they say report it to the police but when the trouble is in the same carraige, there is no way its possable to call the police and for the trouble maker not to know. Like I say this has happened twice to me now.

I occasionally travel on National Express East Anglia or c2c services. One thing i've notice on all the times i've travelled with c2c is that there has been NO ticket checks whatsoever! I had a slight issue with a ticket machine at 4AM at Chalkwell station. I wanted a particular ticket that I looked for 10 minutes trying to find, but couldn't find it... So I was left in a position of: Do I get on the train, ticketless and risk a nasty Penalty Fare? Or do I just buy the Standard Day Single to London and then buy a Zone 1 Single...?? I opted for the latter, and during the journey I encountered no ticket checks, nor any gatelines. But what is the ruling on this if you can't buy the ticket you want, considering most services are DOO...??

Also with NXEA - I normally travel First Class during late evenings, mainly to avoid the drunks and local pond life. But I always end up sharing the compartment with them anyway!! But they never seem from my experience to do late night ticket checks or remove said pond life from First Class... But because NXEA operate a strict Penalty Fare scheme, I don't particularly want to be in the position of sitting in First Class with a Standard ticket, then getting PF'd!! Yes it does say on their website that Disabled Railcard holders are entitled to use their railcard on the their trains with no risk of PF's... But Virgin Trains also said that, and I ended up being collared for ^70 for a Standard Anytime Single, which supposively had a free Weekend First upgrade, but Buffet Car staff and First Class Lounge staff said NO!! >:(