Great Western Coffee Shop

How much work and cost to strip out the spare MkIII buffets and replace with seating?

I imagine one of the major challenges would be putting in windows where there are currently no or small windows in the buffet area without compromising the body work.

Ah... didn't consider the windows.

Would be difficult if there was any integral strengthening immediately below the 'slit' windows. Otherwise, then cutting a larger window frame shouldn't be too problematical I'd've thought.

Having said that, I'm no engineer, and I guess if it is an easy conversion then FGW would've considered it for the micro buffets instead of converting Trailer Standards.

I suppose replacing buffet style windows is just a case of throwing enough money at it. 

The pictures here show three new windows where the buffet used to be, in the recent Gatwick Express Class 442 conversions.  Significant as they are basically Mk3 body shells, and as the sequence shows they had already had extra large windows cut in during a previous overhaul.  As well as extra windows being installed, you can see that the original double slam doors into the luggage area were filled in to be replaced by windows.

http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/features/442/442ext02.html  (http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/features/442/442ext02.html)

Paul

The current franchise was bid to include removing the buffet cars.  There is quite a saving in lease costs.  Unless the government comes up with some more money to convert the old buffet cars - which seems very unlikely in the current economic climate - then they will not bo converted.

Ok, what about stripping the BT10 bogies off of the spare MKIII Buffets and using them on the Iarnr^d ^ireann MKIIIs? Could then be used as a feasability testbed for converting existing MKIIIs to plug doors.

Again, I guess it's money and the political will. But there is enough spare MKIII stock out there that could, with a little will, be pressed into service.

The Irish MKIII stock have a generator van, is it the same as the British HST fleet of 415volts AC 3ph?

Rumour has it that Chiltern have snapped up the IE Mark 3s so looks like FGW have missed the boat. Apparently they are also looking to fit power doors to their existing stock including W&S coaches.

Chiltern are apparently busy looking for secure accommodation for them.

Does anyone know if you can just change the wheelsets or does the bogie need modifying?
 

Not so much missed the boat First only have a few years left with the GW franchise (2015 I believe) whereas Chiltern a lot longer left on its franchise so can justify the business case to acquire more rolling stock and spend money on modifying 30 year old stock

How many MK3's  were in use in Ireland anyway?, surely there may be some left over for FGW or other operators.

Cant really see Chiltern needing all of them unless there is only a small fleet of MK3's in ireland

Maybe they as well as many others have missed the boat. Was it not the fact that First owned some hst's that helped them ot win the Great Western franchise so osning extra stock to increase capacity could be the deal maker when it's re-letting he franchise time

There are about 82 Irish Mk3s for sale I believe.

Edited to fix quote. bnm

Not sure that this is directly applicable.  But many years ago GNER looked at trying to convert ex-Mark III sleeper stock to seating.  They gave up because cutting new windows would have caused structural problems.

Yep the GNER plan to convert sleeper carriages was in my thinking when I mentioned about the challenge of cutting larger windows where there are small windows at one end of the buffet.

The answer I got back from my contact at Chiltern basically states that yes, they've been looking at acquiring Mark III stock from a variety of sources, but can't confirm on the IE ones specifically - So I guess they're still currently available.

It is confirmed that the IE stock has powered doors already fitted.....

According to the lists at thejunction.org.uk there are three HST Coach "A"s rotting away at Long Marston. Given that these were originally standard HST coaches, it surely wouldn't take much to convert them back. Then that would already be half a set of mark 3's sorted.

First Group directly own 12 power cars (I think). I can just see the look on the DfT faces when First hold them to ransom.
Sorry, you what, we've lost FGW? Fine we'll take our power cars with us and dump them in storage somewhere.

I had heard that the IE stock is not DDA compliant in this country.  The doors not wide enough.

Next it will be that it needs an internal PIS in it.

I think there's a DDA differentiation between a refresh and a refurb, in my old FSR days the class 322s had a refresh which provided a wheel chair space but not an accessible toilet.
I'd imagine the amount of work needed on the IE mark IIIs would be pretty much a bare metal strip down.

Wouldn't matter as it's not a new coach build. Grandfathers rights would apply.

I've got a feeling that HST TGS (Coach A on FGW) were built as additonal Vehicles to increase 2 + 7 to 2 + 8 and as such were NEVER standard Coaches

although built later a number of TGS vehicles have been converted namely 82/84/92 95/99 to TS spec...and as for the vehicles rotting away at long marston these are stored for use by Grand Central and presumably are spoken for

Might it be worth fitting seats, but not windows ?
Should be cheap and simple, and although the lack of windows is a backward step, it would apply to a small number of seats over the whole train.

The coach with limited windows should be the one with at seat entertainment, as this reduces the desire to look out of windows.

But how many people actually use the Volo screens? Not many, judging by walking through Coach D or past it on a platform.

But there may very well be serious structural issues with adding more/bigger windows. Indeed there's a letter in October's Modern Railways which says that those half-screens mid-way along Mk3 interiors do in fact have a structural role - but looks like no-one told whoever designed FGW's refresh...

Redundant buffet cars have been converted into ordinary trailers previously. Two were converted to Trailer Firsts as insurance replacements for the two leading coaches destroyed at Southall.

I understand FGW consulted the surviving members of the team that designed the Mk3's and confirmed that although the mid car screens in each trailer were supported on frames welded in at the construction stage they were not critical to the design of the vehicle or its strength. In any case they would only provide very  limited stiffness in terms of bodyside movement when trains pass each other and would not affect the ability to withstand vertical loading or bending. Or buckling of the shell in a rollover / collision situation.

On the class 156 Mk4 derived shell the mid car partitions are structural to the coach.

The question of structural integrity on buffet cars depends on what longitudenal 'top hat' sections are present underneath the skin and below the window line of the small windows. And whether the bodywork can cope with their removal. Obviously the bending loads are less with standard trailer vehicles than with buffet cars with most of the catering equipment weight in the middle of each coach. I understand as much as anything the electrical systems are as great if not a greater problem than making the bodyside wiindows larger.

Correct. There was some shuffling of trailers around at the time as well but the TGS 44xxx series was new build and not converted from existing HST trailers.