Great Western Coffee Shop

Heard last night about someone who was told on the barriers at Oxford that they cound no longer use a Cheap Day Return on a Vomiter (although they would want to is another matter!) from Oxford to Reading.

Is this correct? If so when was it introduced?

Another easment probably for the "Lighter Side". Passengers from stations between Hayes and West Ealing to stations between Maidenhead and Reading MAY travel via Slough as opposed to via Banbury or Ascot?
 

Well, whoever did the telling hasn't got a clue what they are on about! Not unusual for gateline staff who have minimal training when it comes to ticket validities.

The inter-available fares between Oxford and Reading are set by FGW. XC can add their own fares to the flow, as indeed they do on OXF-RDG with ADVs. In some instances they may also offer walk-up fares with the restriction "XC trains Only", if they so wish. What they cannot do is restrict travel on their trains with the inter-available fares set by the lead operator. The lead operator responsible for inter-available fares between Oxford and Reading is FGW. They set the price and any restrictions.

So if the person at the gateline had an 'Any Permitted' CDR then that is available for use on any operator that provides a service between the two stations - or indeed part of the journey subject to permitted routes and break of journey rules. Use of the ticket is of course subject to the time restrictions - in this case: Restriction B3 as set by FGW.

B3 says:

OUTWARD TRAVEL               
By any train except those     
timed to depart Mondays to   
Fridays before 0900           
                             
RETURN TRAVEL                 
By any train

(my emphasis in bold)

If there were to be any restriction on which train company(s) could be used then this would have to be printed on the ticket, in accordance with Section B, para. 10 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies

The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

(Again, my emphasis)

CrossCountry do have an evening restriction on CDRs but only where they set the fare - for example Cheltenham to Birmingham New Street.

I would suggest that if you know the person who was given the duff information, you should get them to bring it to the attention of the station manager at Oxford so that the staff member can be suitably retrained!

where XC sets CDR fares there is an evening restriction but not where any normal TOC sets the fare.

Are you suggesting that XC is not a normal TOC, vacman?  ;) ;D

Sort of related.....

I wonder if FGW or ATW guards regularly ching pax travelling between Cheltenham and Gloucester with Off Peak Day Returns between 1530-1815? XC set the CDR fare so their evening restriction applies.

Mind you, I bet XC guards don't bother to excess either. The SDR is a whole 10p more expensive!

Thanks bignosemac, I'll pass it on to the guy. We all thought it was odd but as vacman says XC is probably not a normal TOC.

Oxford gateline staff are somewhat hit-and-miss: whilst some are a credit to FGW, a significant proportion of them are, quite honestly, a uniformed (not to mention un-informed) liability who would be much better suited to manning a nightclub door than any kind of situation involving customer service.

I don't think I'd take any instructions like that from the gateline staff there without checking them with the duty manager...

I've had a similar experience but in a slightly different context... Try accessing a Virgin Trains First Class Lounge on any ticket to a destination the receptionist doesn't know, they'll refuse entry siting it is not a Virgin Ticket. I knew you can use any 1st ticket in any of their lounges subject to making all or part of your journey on a VT Service...! Something that even when I showed the receptionist on my iPhone from VT's website, she tried to tell me was wrong. I questioned this saying that if it's on your companies website and it's wrong, then WHY is it up there...! A Shrug of the shoulders was all i received, At this point I was getting bored of debating it and demanded to speak to the manager...! The manager confirmed I was correct and that I could use the lounge ;D

But in all seriousness, the amount of time i spent there argueing, it would have been worth the hassle of paying however much it is for a coffee and sitting with the rif raf ( :P ).

I'm starting to wonder secretly if VT discriminate agains't us youfs, My Grandad regularly uses VT and has NEVER had any problems accessing their First Class Lounges or buying Off Peak tickets onboard using a Disabled Railcard ::)

But then I don't seem to have much luck with Virgin Trains do I...? Give me East Coast any day! Never had a problem accessing their lounges! and the coffee is so much better and you don't have to log into their WiFi, it's just an open AP ;D

I can perfectly understand that tt.

Pitching up at The 1st Class Lounge in Manchester in 2008, scruffy jeans and t-shirt, show a 1st Class All Line and told it was not valid. I didn't have access to the website, so had to go to the Virgin desk and ask them to look at their website. They refused, so I had to call Virgin Customer Services who confirmed my ticket was valid. I then had to wait while the CS Advisor placed a call to the lounge staff. Similar problems at New Street.

No apology from the sour-faced girl staffing the lounge when I finally let in. She did however cost her employer ^30 in rail vouchers after I complained.

Contrast that with Euston. Never had a problem there and the staff are fantastic, even serving you at your seat.

Is it possible that they were travelling on a GroupSave CDR? IN this case the advice that the ticket isn't valid would be correct. I've always found the gateline at Oxford to be a lot better than the one at Reading.

GroupSave CDR not valid on CrossCountry? Yes, we know that's what CrossCountry say, but the ticket restriction codes and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage say otherwise. They can have all the advertising and announcements they like, but they cannot trump the NRCoC unless and until they ask all relevant TOCs to change the ticket restrictions and/or have "Not Valid on XC" printed on all GroupSave tickets. Whilst CrossCountry continue to perpetuate the lie that GroupSave is not valid on their trains they are in breach of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and the NRCoC.

NFM07:

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/gsoxf.jpg)

NRCoC:

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

Yes but it is the DISCOUNT which is not valid.  The TICKET is valid on XC trains but the DISCOUNT is not so dont see any problem with XC not allowing them on their trains.

Tell me where the NRCoC makes reference to the DISCOUNT not being valid. Only on the railway!!! "I'm sorry sir/madam, your ticket is valid but the discount isn't." Fupping madness.

Maybe semantics, but there is a distinction to be had between a discounted ticket and a buy X get X free, which is what GroupSave is advertised as being. 3 for 2 or 4 for 2.

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such
as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can
be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train
Companies whose trains you are entitled to use.

Group save is a discount product like a railcard so section 12 would cover it.  If we follow your line of reasoning then FGW would not be able to ban GroupSave tickets to Cardiff or Twickenham on Rugby days.  They are also banned for use to Castle Cary during Glastonbury but no such restriction is printed on the ticket.

I'll concede the point on Section 12, super tm.

But, I'd be willing to wager that CrossCountry still get their ORCATS share from the sale of the GroupSave tickets. I'd be surprised if the ORCATS/LENNON software is sufficiently robust to differentiate between normal CDRs and GroupSave CDRs.

Let me see if I have got this right. You are saying that you are not entitled to use Groupsave on Cross Country because Cross Country say so in their notices and other publications, and back this up by quoting NCoC 12, which refers only to the notices and other publications of a company whose trains you are entitled to use.

Has anyone got an Oozlum bird I could borrow?  ::)

I'll withdraw my concession. Well spotted TJ.

For Section 12 to apply the operators who do allow GroupSave need to produce notices and publications that say GroupSave is not valid on CrossCountry.

I'm yet to find any notices or publications from FGW that say you cannot travel with CrossCountry.

So section 12 does cover FGW for the times when they withdraw GroupSave (sporting events, Galstonbury etc), but does not cover CrossCountry's blanket ban.

The 'Groupsave leaflet' is the 'notice and publication' and you can pick it up at any station in the area.

It is an ATOC publication I think, like all the railcard leaflets, and clearly lists all the TOCs it is available for.

The web version of the T&C is as follows, I expect the leaflet is similar:


I suppose the pedantic view is that there should be two lists, one of valid TOCs, and one of the remainder.  IMHO the rule is clear enough, but IANAL...

Paul

Section 12 says:

These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use.

ATOC is not a Train Company.

So what - it is an umbrella grouping of train companies, so its leaflets are presumably written on behalf of all the listed train companies. It saves them all having to publicise the same information, that's all.

You'd really have to be nitpicking to say that it isn't a train company publication. The NR Cof C that you are quoting section 12 of are published by Rail Settlement Plan, part of ATOC.  Does that mean that section 12 isn't a train company publication either?

Paul

Irrelevant whether NRCoC is a Train Company publication.

It may well be nitpicking but the condition refers to Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. ATOC doesn't run any trains, it is not a Train Company so under Section 12 it's publications bear no relevance to the use of a GroupSave ticket on CrossCountry.

A simple solution would be to re-word Section 12 to include mention of trains you cannot use.

Those TOCs that offer GroupSave need to make clear in their notices and publications that GroupSave is not valid with certain operators to comply with the NRCoC. This should then be backed up by a printed restriction on the ticket to comply with Section 10. ALso, correct entries are needed in the fares manual. Until such time as this happens or the wording of the NRCoC Section 12 changes I remain of the opinion that GroupSave is valid on CrossCountry.

Not forgetting that outside of the NRCoC there is legislation that protects the consumer when there is ambiguity in the contract terms for the supply of goods or services:

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1994 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/3159/introduction/made)

Specifically Provision 6:

Construction of written contracts

6.  A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language, and if there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall prevail.

Give it a try & we'll come & watch as you defend yourself....!

Need two fellow travellers. Any takers?  ;D

Well I am totally confused so I'm up for it  :)