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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: Chris from Nailsea on August 24, 2010, 01:48:30



Title: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 24, 2010, 01:48:30
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11065515):

Quote
A train company has apologised after a disabled passenger filmed one of the guards refusing to help him board a carriage.

Father-of-one Qamar Khaliq said the train guard repeatedly refused to respond to his pleas for help at Manchester Piccadilly on Saturday.

The 35-year-old said he was left with no choice but to film the guard's reaction.

Northern Rail has apologised and is investigating the incident.

Mr Khaliq said what should have been a 10-minute journey back home to Guide Bridge in Audenshaw ended up taking him nearly two hours.

"I always arrive at least 10 minutes early to ensure I can get helped on the train without a problem. There were no platform staff around and I could not see a train guard. A passenger on the train got up to help me and knocked on the guard's window to say there was a man in a wheelchair who needed help. When I asked for his assistance he made a no sign at me and said 'I can't take you, you will have to get the next one'. When I asked him why he refused to answer me and then refused to speak at all and just ignored me."

Mr Khaliq started to film the guard's reaction. "Another train guard even yelled at me as I left saying the police would be coming and they would take my mobile phone off me for filming it," he added.

In the end, he said he left the station and instead boarded a bus, finally returning home at 2245 BST after initially trying to board the train for a 10-minute journey at 2036 BST that evening.

Pete Myers, head of service quality for Northern Rail, said: "We would help anyone who needs assistance. That's why we put ramps on our trains and why we have assistants too. I would like to apologise to Mr Khaliq. Whatever has gone on he could not make his journey without hindrance and that's not right."


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 24, 2010, 15:18:25
Reminds me of an incident on the Cotswold Line a few years ago.  Nice shiny blue ramp holders were installed at most of the stations, but not all Senior Conductors had been issued with a key to unlock them.  Cue a very embarrassing scene where a lady with severe paralysis (her wheelchair was controlled by movements with her mouth) had to be lifted by the SC and a friend - along with her very heavy wheelchair - down onto the platform at Hanborough.

Whilst not wishing to condone what sounds like a very unfortunate incident, quite why the fact he's a father-of-one is worthy of opening the second paragraph is beyond me - did that have any bearing on the incident?


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Phil on August 24, 2010, 15:37:29
quite why the fact he's a father-of-one is worthy of opening the second paragraph is beyond me - did that have any bearing on the incident?

Suggests to me that he can't be paralysed completely from the waist down, but apart from that I'm inclined to agree. And I hardly think that was the message the writer was trying to convey in any case.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 25, 2010, 02:37:23
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11075433):

Quote
Guard suspended over disabled ramp row in Manchester

A train conductor has been suspended after a disabled passenger filmed him refusing to help him board a carriage.

Qamar Khaliq captured the guard's refusal on his mobile phone as he pleaded with him to provide a ramp so he could board a train at Manchester Piccadilly on Saturday.

Northern Rail has since emailed the 35-year-old to apologise for "the problems" he faced during his journey.

A company spokesman said a full investigation is under way.

Mr Khaliq, however, has said the suspension of the train conductor has not made a difference to how vulnerable he now feels. "I know there were a couple of other people involved in what happened to me and I am still going to avoid travelling by train," he said. "I don't feel as safe anymore by any means. Also I still don't know why he would not let me on, that has not yet been explained. The company are investigating so hopefully it will be revealed then."

Mr Khaliq said the 10-minute journey back home to Guide Bridge in Audenshaw ended up taking him nearly two hours because he had to travel home by bus. "When I asked for his assistance he made a no sign at me and said 'I can't take you, you will have to get the next one'. When I asked him why he refused to answer me and then refused to speak at all and just ignored me."

Pete Myers, head of service quality for Northern Rail, said in the email to Mr Khaliq: "I know that nothing I can say will reassure you at this stage, but we do take incidents like this very seriously indeed, and thankfully they are extremely rare. Incidentally I can confirm that we have taken steps to suspend the conductor from duty while our investigation progresses. I do hope that you can travel with us in confidence in the future and that once our investigations are complete we can meet together."


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: devon_metro on August 25, 2010, 13:17:36
I don't really have a massive amount of sympathy with him. There are far better ways to deal with things than to film somebody. I certainly wouldn't be very happy if I was quite clearly being filmed at work without my permission.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Tim on August 25, 2010, 13:48:39
I don't agree.  If he hadn't filmed the guard, would anything have been done about it?  I can't see Northern suspending a member of staff without some evidence which would not be there if there had not been filming. 



Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: JayMac on August 25, 2010, 15:03:28
A perfect example of when a member of staff should be filmed IMHO.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: devon_metro on August 25, 2010, 15:09:16
I don't agree.  If he hadn't filmed the guard, would anything have been done about it?  I can't see Northern suspending a member of staff without some evidence which would not be there if there had not been filming. 



But do we know the full story about what happened? The BBC clip doesn't really show much happening at all.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Tim on August 25, 2010, 16:12:24
No we don't know the full story which is why I am not apportioning blame to either side.  But I do defend the chap's right to film what he considered unreasonable staff action.   

I am sure that you wouldn't be happy being filmed if it meant you were caught doing something wrong.  But if you got into an arguement with jo public and a complaint was made against you, I am sure you would be greatful if there was film evidence (Station CCTV for example) that put you in the clear.  I don't think you can have it both ways.  If it is acceptable for a TOC to monitor passenger activity with a camera, it is equally acceptable for passengers to monitor what the TOCs staff do in the same way.   "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear".


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: vacman on August 25, 2010, 18:40:25
I really dont think that Northern should be publicly saying that they have suspended the guard either, I expect the RMT will now have a field day!


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on August 25, 2010, 20:59:13
that train be going to where i used to live :-)


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: JayMac on August 25, 2010, 21:30:46
A fuller video from the Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1305662/Manchester-railway-staff-ignored-disabled-mans-pleas-wheelchair-ramp.html

Absolutely no evidence that the passenger was in the wrong. No evidence of abuse of staff, no evidence that the wheelchair space was unavailable, no evidence that the passenger didn't have a valid ticket for travel, no evidence that the guard was too busy to to comply with the DDA. Yes, we don't know what went on before filming started, but it appears that the passenger only started filming because he was refused travel. And what was the point of the guard taking a photo of the passenger, except petulance? If the guard was in anyway concerned about the passengers behaviour as a reason for refusing travel he would've said so. Also we hear that old chestnut from the other staff member that the passenger is breaking the law by filming. But apparently, according to him, these staff are not breaking the the law by refusing to comply with the DDA.

I rarely get angry on behalf of others, but this is appalling treatment of a disabled passenger by Northern staff. The guard deserves nothing less than prosecution under DDA legislation and would do very well to keep his job. If the RMT come to his defence in any way then that would just confirm to me what a crackpot union they are.

I also applaud Northern for publically stating that they have suspended the staff member concerned. No stronger message could be sent to all staff that this kind of behaviour toward the disabled is not acceptable.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Super Guard on August 25, 2010, 22:02:35
I rarely get angry on behalf of others, but this is appalling treatment of a disabled passenger by Northern staff. The guard deserves nothing less than prosecution under DDA legislation and would do very well to keep his job. If the RMT come to his defence in any way then that would just confirm to me what a crackpot union they are.

I also applaud Northern for publically stating that they have suspended the staff member concerned. No stronger message could be sent to all staff that this kind of behaviour toward the disabled is not acceptable.


I will preface this by saying if the facts are that the Guard was in the wrong (i've not been able to see the video yet), then it is an absolute disgrace and it is no way to treat any human being, never mind a customer.

However firstly, if the Guard is a fully paid-up member of the RMT, then he has the right to representation by them in any disciplinary action.  The RMT may not agree with his actions, but they will still defend him (that could mean pushing him to resign before he's sacked and lose his benefits etc).

I understand you are upset BNM, with justification, however anyone with an ounce of common decency that works on the Railway knows that what has happened is wrong, and I don't think any kind of message needs to be sent to us staff that this is not acceptable.  Please do not put us in the same boat as this Guard at all.

In fact it could be argued by the RMT that Northern have reacted more to negative media PR by making a song and dance about the Guard being suspended to appease the public rather than investigating first and declining to comment on an employees status, which imo is pretty unprofessional on Northerns part.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: devon_metro on August 25, 2010, 22:09:27
I've been doing some background reading on a number of forums.

It would appear that he was given a valid reason for not being allowed to travel and then started filming when he was not satisfied with the reason. What the reason is i'm not sure. Whilst I agree on the face of it the treatment received is very bad the story represented is very one sided. It would appear that he ignored advice for the matter to be dealt with by Northern and went straight to the media!

Who knows...


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: JayMac on August 25, 2010, 22:28:23
You both raise fair points, DG and d_m. I've also seen posts on other forums about this story and I may have got a bit hot under the collar on this one.

I've probably broken the golden rule about not speculating, but I can only offer my opinion based on the evidence available to me. I'd be more than happy to change my opinion once all the facts are in.

My apologies if I've caused any offence. I've said it before and I'll say it again; the vast majority of rail staff do a sterling job.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Super Guard on August 26, 2010, 10:49:26
BNM, as I said, the reaction is totally understandable and having now seen the video, it's a pretty atrocious way for any member of the public to be treated even if there was a valid reason that the wheelchair could not be taken.  The guard did not enquire whether he could be transferred to a seat/wheelchair collapsed out the way or anything.  The fact the media was the first port of call does not sit quite right with me, but it does not excuse the staff attitude.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Tim on August 26, 2010, 12:27:11
I don't think any kind of message needs to be sent to us staff that this is not acceptable.  Please do not put us in the same boat as this Guard at all.

I mostly agree with this and the vast majority of staff are good people.  BUT, it wasn't just the one guard who caused the problem was it.  Other staff joined in and told lies in order to try and intimidate the customer to stop filming.  The staff attitude problem at Piccadilly can't wholy be blamed on one individual.  probably only one memebr of staff needs to be got rid of, but the others (the bystanders and the lier) need some re-training also.

Again, I make my oft repeated comment about (lack of) management of front line staff.  Staff on the ground do have a tough job, but are only human and sometimes get things wrong, but the only reason a member of staff thinks he can get away with this sort of customer abuse at a major station (and he would have got away with it if it hadn't been for the filming) must be because he assumes that  management don't give a s**t about his actions or that they will not find out. 

Note that the naughty guard is missing a tie and therefore not in proper uniform.  Not a huge crime and you might expect to see this on a rural branchline where things are out of sight.  But this at one of Northern's busiest stations!  Once upon a time the station master (wearing a top  hat himself)would have told him to smarten up.  You can bet that all the staff of Grand central or WSMR (or the lamented GNER) would have been in proper uniform.  Why ?- not because they are better people but simply because they have management that takes an interest. 


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: smokey on August 26, 2010, 16:48:34
Right How many Train Managers/conductors would allow Passengers to Board in a WheelChair bound for Exeter St Thomas?

In the Video it is stated by the Chap that he is going Guide Bridge, which according to the NRES site, is NOT wheelchair ACCESSABLE


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: devon_metro on August 26, 2010, 17:01:54
Further emerging details:

The ramp on the 142 was partially broken and as such was not safe to carry an electric wheelchair and this was explained to the man and he was told to get the class 323 service 12 minutes later. When not satisfied he started filming. According to a number of sources he mutters in a language other than English "i'll get this b******"



Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: inspector_blakey on August 26, 2010, 17:19:46
Having watched the video in full on the Daily Hate website, I'm left with more questions than answers...

If the ramp really was broken, and so the passenger couldn't use that train, why is that simply not explained politely to him and an apology offered? Even if the guard and dispatcher aren't doing anything wrong, they give the strong impression that they are up to no good by their evasive answers and hostile attitude towards the customer. I'm inclined to agree with Donkey Guard that regardless of the rights or wrongs in this situation, that staff attitude can't be excused.

Although the arguments about the legality of filming at stations have been well-rehearsed elsewhere and it is perfectly legitimate, I think that there is more of a grey area when it comes to filming people specifically. However, again the hostility of the staff towards the photographer in this instance reinforces the impression that they're not acting acccording to the rules. One would have thought that if they were secure in the knowledge that they were behaving correctly, they would have been less defensive.

What is also not explained is why the passenger was supposedly "forced" to travel home by bus. If there was indeed another suitable service 12 minutes behind, why did he not take it? It would appear at the end of the video that the female member of staff has come to his assistance and is trying to help out. Did anyone tell him that there was this alternative service? Was he offered help to find and board it? Or did he just leave the station, either because he was so upset by the whole experience or trying to make a point, to seek out a different way home?


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: JayMac on August 26, 2010, 17:35:50
Okay, so the guard realises he's being filmed, so why doesn't he state, on the record, that the ramp is broken and that Guide Bridge is not accesible.

I can't comment on the ramp being OOS, but if it was then being told that Guide Bridge is inaccessible is irrelevent. Guide Bridge is partially accessible with level access, on a tarmac'd pavement, to the platform on which trains from Manchester arrive.

As for the comments made on video in a foreign language - do you not think the various media outlets that have interviewed the guy would have checked out whether he was saying anything defamatory?

DG, are these 'further emerging details' from a reputable news source? If so, then can we have a link.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Mancheste
Post by: brompton rail on August 26, 2010, 18:06:58
From reading another Forum and comments on Manchester Evening News website, it seems that because Class 142 floor level is higher than other rolling stock ( you have 2 steps to climb on 142) the ramp will not fit the platform at Guide Bridge without being too steep or not allowing room for the wheelchair to negotiate off the ramp onto the platform.

Ramps at Network Rail stations (like Manchester Piccadilly) are the responsibility of Network Rail staff and not the TOC.

I doubt that we who were not witnesses can add much of value to this story, so perhaps we should leave it to Pete Myers of Northern to investigate and take the appropriate action. I doubt that the DM will report any more on this story.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Mancheste
Post by: JayMac on August 26, 2010, 18:16:10
Ramps at Network Rail stations (like Manchester Piccadilly) are the responsibility of Network Rail staff and not the TOC.

Is that really the case? The Class 142 has to carry its own special ramp as the standard ones are not suitable because of the double step up to the saloon, so in this instance the provision of a ramp to board the 142 at Piccadilly has to be down to the train staff surely.

The Guide Bridge platforms may well be too low for the 142 ramp and this would be a valid reason for not letting the disabled passenger alight there, so the guard and dispatcher should've said so on camera when they had the chance.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Mancheste
Post by: brompton rail on August 26, 2010, 18:21:07
Apologies BigNoseMac, I should have said station staff.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on August 26, 2010, 20:36:16
ok, i did think the ramp could have been the issue, i decided not to say anything, as already discussed this week there is too much speculation going on recently.... this guard may well have done nothing wrong as we all know there are two sides to every story and its wrong to judge of a video being 'directed' by one of the party's involved 


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: vacman on October 02, 2010, 18:45:23
Apparently the guard is back at work now after the passengers story fell apart, he was told that he needed to get the next service 12 mins later that was operated by a 323 and thus could use the ramp at guide bridge, lets hope Northern get crucified for their premature "apology" making the guard look like the bad guy in the national media!


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: bigdaz on October 16, 2010, 10:12:29
Quote from: vacman
Apparently the guard is back at work now after the passengers story fell apart, he was told that he needed to get the next service 12 mins later that was operated by a 323 and thus could use the ramp at guide bridge, lets hope Northern get crucified for their premature "apology" making the guard look like the bad guy in the national media!

I partially disagree with this!

Being a public figure/servant, you are supposed to be professional AT ALL TIMES even if those around you not.  The video clearly shows an angry, hostile and completely unprofessional response from the rail staff.  As far as I'm concerned, the remaining issue is the CONDUCT of the Northern Rail staff in completely mishandling this type of situation and a possible LACK OF TRAINING in dealing with difficult customers.



Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: plymothian on October 16, 2010, 20:34:08
According to the complainant (read Railforums or Digital Spy) he has received a full apology from NR who state there is no reason why the guard refused and that the train and station are fully accessible.  NR apparently asked the complainant whether the guard should be sacked but he said no.  The complainant says that is the end of the matter in one breath and the next that he is awaiting a further (big) outcome that will satisfy him.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: vacman on October 16, 2010, 20:53:38
I've spoken to someone who knows the guard concerned, the passenger is banned from busses and black cabs in the area for similar abuse, it's what happened BEFORE the video started, yes the guard may have reacted a little unprofessionally but we are all human, the guard has had an appology from Northern and there were previous issues with the particular passenger where he nearly came off the ramp at Guide bridge which isn't a fully accesible station!!!


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: JayMac on October 16, 2010, 21:04:36
According to the complainant (read Railforums or Digital Spy) he has received a full apology from NR who state there is no reason why the guard refused and that the train and station are fully accessible.  NR apparently asked the complainant whether the guard should be sacked but he said no.  The complainant says that is the end of the matter in one breath and the next that he is awaiting a further (big) outcome that will satisfy him.

I've followed this story on Digital Spy and RailUK Forums over the last month or so and I've come to the conclusion that tonyaryan is a bit of an a*se. He's stated that Northern have given him a full apology, yet Northern have been silent on the matter. As for Northern asking a customer whether they wanted a staff member sacked....that's just not the way disciplinary action happens. The unions would have a field day!

I'd take any utterances from tonyaryan with a pinch of salt. His story has be shot full of holes and he has be consistent in his inconsistency.

I took his original post on DigitalSpy, along with the youtube video, at face value (more fool me), but I find it very difficult to believe his version of events after reading all the posts on DS and RailUK Forums.


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Tim on October 19, 2010, 09:24:28
I've spoken to someone who knows the guard concerned, the passenger is banned from busses and black cabs in the area for similar abuse, it's what happened BEFORE the video started, yes the guard may have reacted a little unprofessionally but we are all human, the guard has had an appology from Northern and there were previous issues with the particular passenger where he nearly came off the ramp at Guide bridge which isn't a fully accesible station!!!

Thanks vacman for keeping up with the story and posting this.

An object lesson to us not to prejudge these situations.


Title: Disabled man refused ramp by station staff
Post by: Btline on March 26, 2012, 22:20:47
I few years ago, this clip was uploaded to YouTube. I remember being startled by it at the time, so I was wondering whether anyone knew if they got to the bottom of it?

I've posted it, because I "bumped into" the clip on YouTube and it reminded me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8fTfKGGZ7U


Title: Re: Disabled man refused ramp by station staff
Post by: JayMac on March 26, 2012, 22:46:39
Enough on this matter has been said in the media, on the Digital Spy (http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1333391) forum and over at RailUK (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35872).

Only conclusions came from the wheelchair user himself. Northern trains maintained a dignified silence after the initial media hoo-ha. He has said the matter is resolved, but we will never know how exactly as Northern have remained tight lipped and rather more dignified than Mr Khaliq.

Qamar Khaliq (aka tonyaryan on the two above mentioned forums) did not come across particularly well when debating on those forums. He displayed inconsistencies with his story, was abusive to those who challenged his side of the story and failed to acknowledge that he was putting himself and the child on his lap in danger by using a potentially overloaded powered wheelchair on a ramp into and out of a Class 142. That's to say nothing about the problems of using said ramp on a 142 at his destination station. Something that was explained to him at the time, with an alternative (a few minutes later, Class 323) service being much better suited to his particular journey.



Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: EBrown on March 26, 2012, 23:38:45
This reminds me of the regular failings of South Eastern, particularly at Ashford Intl. I find it quite worrying that one of the largest stations SET runs regularly fails to have staff available to provide ramp access etc (specially when it has been requested in advance).


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Btline on March 26, 2012, 23:44:54
Thanks BNM. Didn't realise/ forgot there was a thread already. :)


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: JayMac on March 27, 2012, 00:03:02
Thanks should go to Chris from Nailsea. He merged the topics. He's much better at it than me.  :P


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 27, 2012, 00:17:15
Years of experience, old boy.  ::)


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Btline on March 27, 2012, 00:51:50
And I've given him plenty of practice... :-\ :-[


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 27, 2012, 01:06:15
One of my tasks on this forum is tidying up after Btline ...  ;D


Title: Re: Disabled man films Northern Rail refusal to help boarding train in Manchester
Post by: vacman on March 27, 2012, 09:34:49
In the end i believe the guard was  given a full apology from Northern (as i read on another forum) as the passenger had been abusive etc BEFORE he started filimng then made himself out to be an angel once he started filming.



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