Great Western Coffee Shop

You weekend first upgrade then because it's busy, half way through the journey the new tm decides to let standard passengers sit in fc with no upgrade required

No

No harm dropping a line to Customer Services, explaining what happened. If the majority of your journey was in a de-classified 1st Class carriage then you can argue that if you had waited or boarded later you wouldn't have had to pay the upgrade. However, a goodwill gesture is unlikely if the carriage was de-classified near the end of your journey.

Which TOC are we talking about?

Hope this is a more constructive reply than the first one!  ;)

Got on at nail sea on the 1512 departure - crew change at Bristol - already had the weekend first upgrade.

Just after chippenham new train manager tells the train that as it is so busy, standard class pax can go sit in first - not helped by the air con in b being up the duff

FGW Weekend First covers a zonal system. I'm assuming you were going to Reading? In which case you could try and get ^5 back?

Nailsea - Chippenham is ^10
Nailsea - Reading/Paddington is ^15

But then after Chippenham did you still get some complimentary stuff?

No guarantees that you will get anything, but write in and see what happens and let us know :)

You paid ^15 I assume for a three zone Weekend First (http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=3973)?

If that's the case then you only got exclusive 1st class travel in two zones (http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/FGW%20Weekend%20First%20Zones%20map%20for%20WEB%20%28June%2009%29%20.pdf), and even then only just two zones as Chippenham is the first station in the next zone when travelling toward London from the Bristol area.

No harm in asking nicely for ^10 back, but you may strictly only be entitled to ^5. After all anyone with a normal 1st class ticket would be entitled to a refund of the difference between STD and 1st fares for the portion of their journey that was de-classified.

I don't think whether you got any 'comps' is relevant. Full 1st Class ticket holders would still be able to get a refund of the difference in fares regardless of whether they'd had any 'comps'.

Any reason 1530 Bri Pad was so busy?  ???

Can't think of one but I'm not really a local yet

Hordes - and I mean hordes - got on at Bristol, bath and chippenham so it was not just one place.

Was six late leaving Weston I know that but it just kept losing time due to the amount of people joining

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/bfdev2.jpg)

End of Bristol Balloon Fiesta? Once they're gone, they're gone, I guess, and I know that the balloons tend to drift east over Bath and beyond ... indeed they often land in the field behind us - 12 miles beyond Bath.

Perhaps I should have put that in "other ways to travel"?

Ah yes of course, forgot about the baloon festival.

1530 ex Bristol does seem a little early for the returning Fiesta hordes though. The Red Arrows weren't scheduled to perform until 4pm with another mass ascent planned for 6pm.

(Site report from a friend who's there.... yes there was a mass ascent this evening.)

I have a feeling that there's something buried away in notices, byelaws or conditions somewhere (although I couldn't find it in the Conditions of Carriage on a quick skim read a few mins ago) saying that the train companies are at liberty to declassify first class vehicles as they see fit, and in that case they have no liability to first class ticket holders already occupying them. On that basis you may not be entitled to a refund, but as I can't seem to find a source for it at the moment I may be out of date or just outright incorrect - anyone else know what I'm talking about?

There's always the chance of some sort of ex gratia reimbursement if you ask nicely though I suppose.

There is this from the NRCoC which could be interpreted (as usual, down to interpretation) as relevant in FA's case.

From the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf):

That bit about 'a first class ticket (or the equivalent)' could potentially cover FAs scenario. De-classification makes the 1st Class accomodation 'not available'. In FAs case the difference in fares is the upgrade payment for the 'relevant part' of her journey, which I think should be ^10 as she was in Standard accomodation through two zones. Or FGW could say that the refund should be based on the zones travelled in prior to the de-classification, in which case it would be ^5.

Either way, I think this part of the NRCoC can be interpreted to cover the de-classification of 1st Class accomodation for refund purposes.

Just my interpretation mind, not a statement of fact!

I don't think I agree with that interpretation - of course the first class accommodation is still there! It's just that there are plebs sitting in it who haven't paid extra...

I'm absolutely sure there is a clause somewhere in a relevant document that absolves train companies of liability to refund first-class ticket holders when the vehicles are declassified (I just can't for the life of me remember where I read it), otherwise they'd never do it.

Doubt whether anything is due to be rights - the arguement is that you got what you paid for. Just because some people got more than they paid for is not a reason to refund you. You didn't pay for an empty carraige!

Bit like upgrades on an aircraft, I would think. Can't imagine BA refunding their first class passengers because some economy class peeps where upgraded.

Your only arguement for a refund would be that you did not get what you paid for.

To be honest I won't be applying for one - was more curiosity since it really did depend on where you boarded - which sortbof invalidates the airline argument

To be fair - because I was working I had one little old lady sit opposite me who fell asleep but I did feel for some of the others who got a walking party join them

Best not upgrade next Saturday then!  ;) ;D

what would happen if i paid full price for a first class ticket and then first class was packed out by people using weekend first to upgrade on the cheap?  ;D

In Inter-City days weekend first was limited to Coach F & G, coach H remained Full first class only.

I think this still is the case on East Coast. Is it on FGW?
On XC you are all stuck in the one First Class Coach!

You don't get a refund if you have First Class ticket and there are no First Class seats!

Somewhere in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage is a bit about travelling in Standard with a First Class ticket, you should get the difference back - if first class should have been available.

However if you are in the First Class carriage but with no seat then there is no difference back.

Condition 38I'm not quite sure how you would prove which train you travelled in (especially where several different operators serve one route), unless your ticket has been stamped.  However some operators only punch a hole (e.g. Southern) or scribble a line through the date (e.g. SWT).

Well, I guess you would be well advised to ask the TM/ conductor to endorse your ticket.

Yes you do.  If you have a first class ticket but there are no first class seats you may claim a refund of the difference in price between a standard class ticket and a first class ticket fro the journey you are making.  Probably helps to ask the TM to endorse the ticket.

Useful bit of information to know.  Certainly helps to calm some people down who have paid for first class and cant get a seat.  It is a pretty rare occurance though.  The 1548 Pad to Cheltenham Spa when it was a 180 was always overfull in 1st on fridays.

Didnt mean that sort of walking party

I meant a party that happened to be walking rather than static

Usual endorsement I make is 'Passenger travelled standard between xxx and xxx'  and re stamp ticket, or write new one if ticket is of the type with adverts on the back and no room for endorsement.
Should be pointed out that there is a difference between on-train staff upgrading passengers (ie wheel chair space in STD in use so putting another wheelchair (and those travelling with them) in first) and a full declassification where anyone can sit in first class.
Personally, on the few occasions I have declassified then I have spoken to everyone with first class tickets (including upgrades) and given out endorsed compo forms and prepaid envelopes. I acknowledge this isn't as easy with 3-4 coaches of first when the TM office is the other end of the train.

Nice to see the responses from train staff, super tm and readytostart, showing good examples of a common sense approach, regardless of whether the rules mean they have to endorse tickets.

You are a credit to the industry. I hope you don't get grief from management when you decide to de-classify.  8)