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Title: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: TheLastMinute on August 04, 2010, 15:24:06 From the Weston Mercury (http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/content/twm/news/story.aspx?brand=Westonmercury&category=news&tBrand=westonmercury&tCategory=znews&itemid=WeED04%20Aug%202010%2011%3A51%3A20%3A110):
Quote A crackdown on fare dodgers at Weston station involving eight railway staff, two policemen and a security guard has been branded excessive by commuters. Train company First Great Western launched the day of action yesterday morning (Wed) to stop people travelling without a ticket. But startled travellers said they were perturbed by the authorities' actions. Commuter Jeff Dickson, of Locking Road, said: "I can understand that they want people to buy tickets, but this must be an over-reaction. I don't know why there are so many people here and it's a little intimidating." Those who ride without a ticket can be required to buy one and given a ^20 fixed penalty fare notice. A spokesman for the company said it was a 'visibility campaign' to show passengers that the issue was being treated seriously. The spokesman added: "It isn't excessive. People who don't pay their fares play a big part in pulling investment away from the railway and fare avoidance is a big issue for us. Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: JayMac on August 04, 2010, 15:36:21 Mr Dickson - You happy to pay for those who fare dodge? That lost revenue goes on your ticket price. Also a handy way to catch n'er-do-wells. Police often find those on warrants when carrying out these checks.
FGW Spokesman - Fare avoidance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fare_avoidance) may be a big issue for you but it's legitimate. Suggest you meant fare evasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fare_evasion). Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: Brucey on August 04, 2010, 15:43:33 I can't see why people wouldn't want these checks? As a fare paying passenger/customer/whatever, I expect the relevant companies to ensure other travellers also have tickets. Provided the staff are polite and fair, I'd certainly encourage more of these visible campaigns, along with visible checks on the train.
Only problem with doing this at stations like Weston, is that "those in the know" will have boarded their train at Parson Street or Bedminster ::) ;D Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: matt473 on August 04, 2010, 15:48:08 Only heavy handed if you don't have a ticket and hoped to chance it methinks
Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: Brucey on August 04, 2010, 15:51:23 Doesn't W-s-M have about 4 or 5 entrances/exits, so I assume the large number of staff were required to cover all areas?
One side of the station doesn't have ticket selling facilities, so was there someone selling tickets or issuing platform tickets for people from this side? Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: Electric train on August 04, 2010, 16:11:54 It is a sad fact that some fare dodgers get violent when challenged.
Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: Tim on August 04, 2010, 16:27:23 I have no problem with a large number of staff tackling a serious problem. Polite staff and coppers shouldn't be intimidating to the law abiding. Joint operations with BTP are great because the staff can be robust with the scrotes and know that they have backup.
The thing I don''t like about FGW's whole approach to evasion is that is sometimes more about style than substance. We don't need a 'visibility campaign' to show passengers that the issue is being treated seriously we need the issue to be treated seriously. It is the same problem I have with barriers, FGW installs them "to send out a message that ticketless travel will not be tolerated" and then skimp on staffing and don't man the barriers. Consistant enforcement is the answer not one off swoops. The problem with one off swoops is that the evasion starts again as soon as the "visability campaign" has moved on. Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: inspector_blakey on August 04, 2010, 19:58:16 I do feel for companies like FGW sometimes, since it often seems that in the eyes of the local rags and the junior-grade hacks who write in them they can do absolutely no right!
Let's imagine the story had been one about the levels of fare evasion between Weston and Bristol. In that case, for every Jeff Dickson whingeing about ticket checks, I'm the bog-sheet would have managed to dig up someone with a name like Gladys Scrubbins from Scabies Crescent, W-S-M* to say that "it's disgusting" that her train fares are subsidizing fare dodgers and "someone ought to do something about it". *An entirely fictitious character, as far as I'm aware. But Mrs Scrubbins, if you're out there the resemblence to you was purely coincidental so please don't sue me. Thanks. Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: Super Guard on August 04, 2010, 20:47:12 In this instance the "heavy handed" action by FGW/BTP has raised the issue in the local press, which was probably one outcome the company wanted.
Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: vacman on August 04, 2010, 21:46:40 This report is exactly what FGW want, high profile in the papers! the entrance on the down side at WSM is to be permenently locked very soon and rumour has it that permenent ticket checks are to commence at the station at peak times.
Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: Timmer on August 04, 2010, 21:55:46 Lets hope we see more of this. The railways need all the revenue they can get with cuts ahead. There are still too many out there getting a free ride off the back of those who pay their fare so I applaud any TOC that gets tough on fare dodgers.
Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: JayMac on August 04, 2010, 22:14:49 Getting tough on fare-dodgers is to be welcome, but we need to see less heavy handed treatment of passengers caught out by ticket restrictions etc. It's not right that Doris Scrubbins (aged 82, spinster sister of Gladys :D ) gets Penalty Fare'd or forced to buy an Anytime ticket because she has mistakenly caught the wrong train.
Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: inspector_blakey on August 04, 2010, 22:38:44 I spotted on Nigel Harris's blog earlier on that he had found an excerpt from a Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway General Appendix, exact date uncertain but certainly pre-1892.
It says that ^Collection and examination of tickets must be done with civility, judgment and tact." As true today as it was 120 years ago! Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: vacman on August 05, 2010, 10:51:16 Getting tough on fare-dodgers is to be welcome, but we need to see less heavy handed treatment of passengers caught out by ticket restrictions etc. It's not right that Doris Scrubbins (aged 82, spinster sister of Gladys :D ) gets Penalty Fare'd or forced to buy an Anytime ticket because she has mistakenly caught the wrong train. you cant be PF'd for a restricted ticket under the PF rules.Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: inspector_blakey on August 05, 2010, 15:17:00 Really...?! I was sure you could get slapped with a PF for using a ticket that wasn't valid for the particular service, e.g. off-peak on a barred train. The reason I thought that was this: it seems that the NRCoC spell out pretty clearly that a penalty fare can be charged in those circumstances.
Here's the first part of condition 4, with my emphasis in bold: Quote 4. Penalty Fares Penalty Fares are charged by Train Companies at some stations and in some trains. You may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if: (a) you travel in a train without a ticket or Permit to Travel; or (b) you travel in a class of accommodation for which the ticket is not valid; or (c) you travel in a train and the circumstances set out in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply; or (d) you are present in a Compulsory Ticket Area without a ticket or Permit to Travel ...and then condition 12 says: Quote 12. Restrictions on when you can travel Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then: (a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket); or (b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. I had always assumed that this gave TOCs the right to charge a penalty fare if a restricted ticket was used in error on the wrong train, rather than the appropriate excess. Condition 10 also implies that you can be stung if you use an advance ticket on the wrong TOC's train. So do the penalty fares rules really stop PFs being issued when a passenger has a ticket but it's the wrong type for the time of day or an advance used in the wrong train? It would be nice if they did, but the NRCoC appear from my reading to provide for PFs. Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: paul7575 on August 05, 2010, 16:25:51 I think there is a conflict with the 2002 PF rules (available via the DFT's website), which do say clearly that you can't be PF'd for using a restricted train.
Quote 6. An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. I think it depends on the subsection 12 (b) - ie how 'some types of discounted tickets' is defined, and this is the weak area. Does it mean all tickets other than Anytime Single/Return? Because if it does, then 12 (a) is a waste of space. By the way, there's a new ticketing leaflet out - I wonder if that makes it any clearer? Er... No >:( http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/National%20Rail%20Guide%20to%20Tickets%20-%20June%202010.pdf (http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/National%20Rail%20Guide%20to%20Tickets%20-%20June%202010.pdf) Paul Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: JayMac on August 05, 2010, 16:43:48 One major hint in the "Other hints to help you save money" box in that leaflet is missing..... split tickets.
A 14 page leaflet to explain our 'simple' fares structure.... ??? ::) Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: Brucey on August 05, 2010, 16:45:16 One major hint in the "Other hints to help you save money" box in that leaflet is missing..... split tickets. And "buy a ticket to and from stations that you have no intention of travelling through" as it may be cheaper than a direct ticket.Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: inspector_blakey on August 05, 2010, 17:57:46 I think there is a conflict with the 2002 PF rules (available via the DFT's website), which do say clearly that you can't be PF'd for using a restricted train. Quote 6. An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. I think it depends on the subsection 12 (b) - ie how 'some types of discounted tickets' is defined, and this is the weak area. Does it mean all tickets other than Anytime Single/Return? Because if it does, then 12 (a) is a waste of space. By the way, there's a new ticketing leaflet out - I wonder if that makes it any clearer? Er... No >:( http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/National%20Rail%20Guide%20to%20Tickets%20-%20June%202010.pdf (http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/National%20Rail%20Guide%20to%20Tickets%20-%20June%202010.pdf) Paul Hmm...still makes it sound like you could be got for incorrect use of an Advance though, since that appears to be covered by condition 10, covering tickets that are TOC-specific. Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: smokey on August 07, 2010, 13:08:56 I just wonder how much is lost to the Railway industry due to Free Loaders, I state this as I was on a FGW HST going to Plymouth (Argyle playing at home) and I heard a Punter state fairly loudly that he Travelled Daily between the Two Stations we had just passed through Every Day for Three years and in that time he brought a ticket only when challenged and that was just TWICE. ,
Allowing For Holidays, Bank Holiday and Weekends I make that twice in roughly 680 days. Note his starting station is UNstaffed. But it's still 99.5% uncollected funds. Title: Re: Fare dodgers targeted at [WsM] station (Weston Mercury 4/8/10) Post by: vacman on August 08, 2010, 00:38:50 you can technicly be PF'd for Advance on wrong train as in this instance you would be treated as having NO ticket under the Advance ticket conditions, you can also be PF's for no railcard and for an out of date ticket but not for example using a super off-peak on an anytime train, you should be excessed up to the Anytime ticket.
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