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Title: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: JayMac on July 10, 2010, 21:46:39 As has been mentioned on a couple of other topics, there are currently trains running across the network for which it is impossible to book tickets on. This is apparently due to problems with Network Rail's train planning system. The details of these missing trains appear to be known within the industry, but information to passengers has been almost non-existent.
The ones I have been made aware of in FGW-land are: 0647 Worcester Shrub Hill - Weymouth (Mon-Sat) 1140 Penzance - Paddington (Sun) 1615 Newquay - Paddington (Sun) [This one is missing 11/07, but no obvious reason] Can some of our 'insiders' add to this list? I have e-mailed FGW asking why they are not informing the travelling public. It is particularly worrying for the long distance services as passengers are being denied the opportunity to buy cheap advance tickets. Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: amiddl on July 10, 2010, 22:34:16 The 17.45 Plymouth - Paddington is not there. In fact do a search for late afternoon trains tomorrow Plymouth Paddington and all options are via Bristol until the 19.55.
Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: readytostart on July 10, 2010, 23:38:37 There were a lot of FGW services missing in Avantix today, I had one passenger with a print out from an SWT station advising travel to Didcot from Winchester by changing at Oxford into a bus to Abingdon and then another bus to Didcot!
Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: JayMac on July 11, 2010, 02:05:06 'Industry Insider' wrote in recent article in RAIL magazine:
Quote People working at the existing (train planning) centres at Leeds, Paddington and Birmingham were expected to transfer en masse to Milton Keynes but, of course, this has not happened. And to add to the woe, deficiencies in a new Integrated Train Planning System has required manual intervention. As a result, TOCs will be unable to produce timetables for the May timetable change if more than one operator is involved on the route, as the automated arrangements do not take account of the fact that trains operating in different parts of the network have the same reporting number. This seems to have been overlooked, with the result that what appear to be duplicate paths are deleted. The procedure for short-term planning also does not work, as these additional trains have been found to override the permanent timetable. Full article here (http://www.natrailawards.co.uk/downloadfile.asp?file=110). Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: Timmer on July 11, 2010, 13:23:51 As we are constantly told to 'use the journey planner' or 'print your own timetable' rather than publish online or in print revised weekend timetables this needs to be sorted out. It's concerning when even rail staff aren't even able to access timetables because hard copies of revised timetables are no longer made available to staff or passengers.
So much for progress. Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: Mookiemoo on July 11, 2010, 23:27:37 W&S never show unless going to MYB
Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: Ollie on July 12, 2010, 00:07:04 As we are constantly told to 'use the journey planner' or 'print your own timetable' rather than publish online or in print revised weekend timetables this needs to be sorted out. It's concerning when even rail staff aren't even able to access timetables because hard copies of revised timetables are no longer made available to staff or passengers. Staff can use TOPS/TRUST(Where available) but not everyone knows how to use or access it..So much for progress. As an edit: advised by a colleague that Trust/Tops still has stuff missing too, I think I've just been fortunate so far.. Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: Timmer on July 12, 2010, 10:17:58 FGW have acknowledged that there is a problem and have now posted the following on the front page of their website:
Quote Due to an issue with the timetabling system, some train services are incorrectly advertised on the First Great Western website and other electronic timetable systems. Customers who wish to check their journey times are advised to contact National Rail Enquiries on 08457 484950. Network Rail are working as fast as possible to rectify this issue. The potential problem with ringing NREs is that if they use the same electronic timetable system that supplies the FGW website, trainline etc, then unless NREs is supplied revised timetables directly from the TOCs affected then they will say the same as what you found out yourself online. Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: JayMac on July 12, 2010, 10:54:19 Useless notice. Thougt I'd see what NRE had to say about the 0840 BRI-WEY. Still doesn't exist according to them!
Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: JayMac on July 14, 2010, 12:56:06 I see the notice didn't stay up very long on the FGW website. Here's hoping that my call to Customer Services advising of the pointlessness of contacting NRES was partly repsonsible. Although I would rather they posted details of all the 'ghost trains' currently missing from OJPs, 'Live Departures', TRUST, etc. FGW are running these 'missing' trains, so someone at Swindon knows about them!
Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: Super Guard on July 15, 2010, 00:39:33 The 1954 EXD-PAD was not anywhere to be found in my Avantix, however on checking NRE App on my iphone it was listed as departing Platform 6 at EXD as per normal ::)
Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: JayMac on July 15, 2010, 00:45:16 It appears that Network Rail are beginning to get a handle on the 'missing' trains. The 0647 WOS-WEY appeared on 'Live Departures' today, but not on Journey Planners. However the timings and final destination were all to cack and two different services appeared to be running in the same path!
See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=7126.msg70975#msg70975 Title: Another phantom train.... Post by: Mookiemoo on July 16, 2010, 19:55:12 The 072X from nailsea to BTM on saturday does not appear on any planner
I got it last week and plan to get it tomorrow. I was on it last week as I missed the 0645 and was shocked when it stopped at temple meads Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: Worcester_Passenger on July 16, 2010, 20:14:54 I think that this is not so much a phantom train as one with an important stop missed out in its electronic version. My copy of the RailPlanner software has it running non-stop from Bedminster to Lawrence Hill:
First Great Western Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: Mookiemoo on July 16, 2010, 20:20:21 The problem is if you need to be in aston for 10am the 0727 is perfect - you connect with the 8am CX service which gets you into new street perfectly for the walk to aston
Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: JayMac on July 17, 2010, 03:59:25 I contacted Network Rail regarding the ongoing issues with the Integrated Train Planning System and decided to bypass the usual 'Customer Service' route and instead went looking for a response from their 'Press Relations' department. I'm including both my e-mail and the response in full with slight editing to protect my and NR's respondee's anonimity. The response from NR came with a pretty dire warning regarding publishing the content, but on reading what they had to say I can't see why. Aside from the issues raised I'm impressed by the speedy response that Network Rail gave me.
Dear *****, I write to you to enquire as to the progress Network Rail are making in sorting out the issues with the Integrated Train Planning System. I contribute to an online forum for passengers of First Great Western and we have had numerous posts and queries regarding FGW services that are missing or incorrectly listed on Online Journey Planners, 'Live Departures' and TRUST/TOPS. A statement I've received from FGW highlights their frustration with the problems with the ITPS, leaving passengers unable to book cheaper advance purchase tickets for longer distance services. They've also had numerous local services that are either missing or only showing on 'Live Departures' with timings and final destinations that are totally out of kilter with published timetables. Could you provide me with a statement regarding the technical issues currently faced by Network Rail and its operation of the ITPS and what efforts are being made to rectify the problem. I've gleaned a few bits of information from the specialist press and by trawling the web, but I've seen no statements from Network Rail or individual TOCs, save for one update on FGW's website which directed customers to National Rail Enquiries - a fruitless exercise as it turned out - NRES are as much in the dark as the travelling public. Yours faithfully, ****** ****** Bristol. Hi ****** Just getting back to you in response to the timetable issues we^ve had with implementing our new system. Getting the new route planning system up and running was a massive undertaking. The system has to coordinate the efficient running of 24,000 train services, moving at different speeds and varying stopping patterns. The system went through thorough testing before launch and our train planning team worked around the clock to iron out issues as they arose. However, owing to the sheer complexity of the system some glitches did not come to light until the system went live and some services were affected as a result. We will continue to work to resolve any outstanding issues and apologise to anyone whose journeys have been affected. Thanks Regards ***** ***** ******** Network Rail 90 York Way London N1 9AG Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: Worcester_Passenger on July 17, 2010, 07:05:38 I'm unconvinced.
The real skill that's involved in a big database like this one is not getting it to work in the first place, but the ongoing accurate maintenance of the data. By comparison, the database that's in a GPS's route planner is an easy matter. It's vulnerable to (1) a road link not being in the data or (2) a road link being connected to the wrong place. The latter are known as 'tunnel links' in the trade - lots of traffic ends up wanting to use an erroneous link that runs from Bristol to Newcastle and takes 5 minutes. Think of the secret passages on the Cluedo board. There's ways that you can test the database for (2) by looking at link speeds and by plotting the network as a map. Errors of type (1) are more difficult to find. The rail equivalent is two orders of magnitude more complicated. First off, it's a network in space and time, so you can have tunnel links in the time dimension as well. But worse, it changes every weekend. That requires a lot more careful work to (1) enter the data correctly in the first place, and (2) correct the errors that will inevitably appear. Neither of the examples that this thread has been concerned with (the 06:47 Worcester - Weymouth, and the 06:00 Exeter - Bristol Parkway) are affected by the weekend changes issue, but they should have been spotted and corrected by now, six weeks into the Summer timetable. Those of you who are paranoid might (not) want to imagine what would happen if some hacker started fiddling with this database. Given the amount of physical security that you see round signalling installations, I do hope that there's an equivalent level of electronic security round this data. OK, it's not safety critical, but you could destroy staff and passenger faith in the accuracy of information very quickly. Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: JayMac on July 17, 2010, 08:20:25 Well... given the opportunity and the nous, I happily hack into the 'database' to correct the anomalies with the 0647 ex WOS! I might even consider adding a couple of Chippenham-Westbury services..... ;) ;D
Title: Botched timetable introduction by Network Rail (Daily Telegraph (08/09/2010) Post by: JayMac on September 08, 2010, 09:21:36 From the Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/7987699/Passengers-turned-up-for-non-existent-train-services-after-Network-Rail-blunder.html):
Quote Passengers turned up for non-existent train services after Network Rail blunder Passengers have turned up for non-existent trains because of the botched introduction of this summer^s railway timetable, it emerged last night. It has left Network Rail the threat of a multi-million fine after the rail regulator ruled that the company, which runs the country^s track infrastructure, was in breach of its licence. The problems centre on the creation of a new computer system which was supposed to integrate the timetables of all 19 major train operators in May. A series of faults meant that pocket timetables were not produced in time, passengers were unable to book tickets on the internet for some services while others just disappeared into the ether. ^Train operators websites were saying services were running, when they weren^t,^ said Jo de Bank, spokesman for London TravelWatch. There were times when trains, which had been cancelled owing because of engineering works, were still shown as running. We even had people turning up for services which didn^t exist, even though they appeared on the national rail inquiries and train operators websites. They should have tested the whole system. Network Rail did not think about passengers properly.^ A spokesman for the Association of Train Operating Companies laid bare the chaos which some passengers faced. ^Network Rail^s problems with the introduction of its new planning system impacted on operators, leaving some unable to make trains available for passengers to book tickets in advance. Train companies have applied pressure for Network Rail to make rapid improvements, whilst working hard to minimise the effect on passengers.^ The punitive action planned by the regulator is t is a fresh blow for Network Rail, whose directors shared ^2.36 million in bonuses last year. It comes just over two years after the company was fined ^14 million for failing to complete Christmas engineering works on time. Bill Emery ORR chief executive said the introduction of the new computerised planning system should bring long term benefits to passengers and train operators. ^But the introduction earlier this year has been most unsatisfactory. Our extensive investigation found that there had been a marked failure to consider properly, mitigate, and communicate the risks of initial problems affecting operators and passengers.^ A Network Rail spokesman admitted mistakes had been made. ^But the company responded quickly to implement a wide reaching action plan to correct the teething problems experienced. There are lessons to be learned from updating such decades old railway industry systems as the industry moves forward, pushing modernisation and innovation for the benefit of passengers and freight users.^ Coucher's last hurrah? ::) Title: Network Rail pledge follows ^3m fine Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 28, 2010, 00:46:28 See the Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4af2d1da-e1da-11df-b71e-00144feabdc0.html)
(Copyright restrictions mean I cannot quote the text here: you'll just have to follow the link.) ::) Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: ChrisB on October 30, 2010, 11:34:08 For review purposes, large chunks can be quoted.....
Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: SDS on October 30, 2010, 15:24:47 Criticism, review or parody if I remember rightly.
Title: Re: Network Rail pledge follows ^3m fine Post by: grahame on October 30, 2010, 15:57:44 See the Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4af2d1da-e1da-11df-b71e-00144feabdc0.html) (Copyright restrictions mean I cannot quote the text here: you'll just have to follow the link.) ::) For review purposes, large chunks can be quoted..... Criticism, review or parody if I remember rightly. Let me be zealously precis(ish) here ... as we're looking at a legal aspect of running / hosting a site like this. Where information is available in public, then I agree with ChrisB and SDS pad. However, the Financial Times's web site and articles are hidden behind a registration (which I have not followed through myself) and they may have added - or attempted to add - other conditions to the quoting or reuse of the material that's there. In my work, I sometime have to sign some sort of "NDA" or nondisclosure agreement and that restricts what I can do with various bits of information / data that I come to know ... To be strictly accurate, the extra restrictions that concern Chris f N may not be copyright restrictions but restrictions placed on him as part of a contract between himself and the Financial Times (but that would have been an awful lot to write). Whether the terms could / would be upheld in a court of law if Chris had published here and [he / the site operator / the hosting company] had been sued by the FT, I don't know ... but I'm delighted he took the course of action he did in providing a link, as it means that the article can be available to anyone who wants to see it, and we keep ourselves focused on our objectives - rail / public transport related, and not the finer aspects of contract and copyright law. Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: paul7575 on October 30, 2010, 18:39:39 Another option, assuming the story is about the ITPS fine, is why not just quote the NR press release, rather than the FT analysis of it? - or possibly the BBC?
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Press-Releases/NETWORK-RAIL-RESPONDS-TO-ORR-FINE-REGARDING-ITPS-15c2/SearchCategoryID-2.aspx (http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Press-Releases/NETWORK-RAIL-RESPONDS-TO-ORR-FINE-REGARDING-ITPS-15c2/SearchCategoryID-2.aspx) Paul Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 30, 2010, 20:37:31 - or possibly the BBC? Possibly, I would have done so - but the BBC did not cover that story. :-X Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: onthecushions on November 03, 2010, 23:26:45 Obliquely relevant. Today I saw a Hull Trains adelante(?), c11.15, (Wed. 3rd November), down relief, approaching Ealing Broadway. Diversion or route learning? OTC Title: Re: Trains missing from Journey Planners. Post by: SDS on November 03, 2010, 23:37:34 Neither.
FHT still uses OOC for some things. I dunno if its for their exams or major overhauls. You will regularly see 180s at OOC. Saw that 180 in OOC today as well. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |