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Title: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 27, 2010, 00:39:15 From The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rail-firms-accused-over-missing--firstclass-seats-1983916.html):
Quote Britain's complex rail ticketing system excelled itself yesterday when it emerged that a train company is selling first-class tickets for trains without first-class seating. Southeastern Railways charges ^43.20 for a first-class ticket and ^33.30 for a standard fare on the high-speed route from London to Dover Priory. Whichever fare is paid, passengers may only sit in standard accommodation because the route does not offer a premium service. Southeastern rationalised the anomaly by explaining that the seats on the high-speed trains were more comfortable than usual standard seats ^ and added that those who bought first-class tickets had the choice of travelling on a slow service, which does have first-class seating but which takes almost an hour longer to arrive at the south coast. "A first-class ticket will provide you with a choice of using the mainline first-class or the high-speed service without the need to pay the supplement," it said. Standard customers who buy tickets for the slow service, which takes two hours rather than little over one hour, have to pay only ^4 if they wish to switch to the high-speed service, which uses the Channel Tunnel lines between London and Ashford before shuffling along the mainline between Ashford and Dover. Southeastern, which is owned by the Go-Ahead Group, acknowledged that standard passengers who booked the high-speed link paid less for sitting on the same standard seats as first-class passengers who, in return for paying more, usually receive more comfortable seats and complimentary tea and coffee. The consumer group Which?, which uncovered the arrangement, responded: "So paying 30 per cent extra buys a standard-class, high-speed service ^ or a 40-minute slower first-class service." In another case, Which? discovered that First Capital Connect charges 63 per cent more for single first-class fares between Luton Airport Parkway station and Wimbledon in south-west London. This line also has no first-class service. The train company told Which?: "The ticket is available because you can travel first-class for parts of your journey to Wimbledon if you choose." However this would involve getting off at St Pancras, walking to the Underground, taking a 12-minute ride to Vauxhall at a cost of ^4 and getting back on the train again. Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: Mookiemoo on May 27, 2010, 05:08:02 Arriva do this as well. Can just about accept it on Shrewsbury/Crewe to Wrexham where you could get virgin or w&s but Ludlow to Newport? Even the wagex doesn't stop at Ludlow but there is indeed a first class fare for that route - or there was before the timetable change this month
Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: Timmer on May 27, 2010, 06:08:06 I think SE missed a trick and more revenue by not providing 1st on their HS Javelin services.
Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: Brucey on May 27, 2010, 08:23:37 Same on FGW for Bristol to Portsmouth. ^133.50 for a 1st class single (compared to ^32.50 for the cheapest standard single). No 1st class provided on the 158s. However you always have the option of going another route (1st class is routed NOT LONDON, as oppose to SALISBURY on the standard) or working out SWT/SN connection times.
I think the moral is to always check the timetable to make sure the service you wish to use has 1st class accommodation! Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: moonrakerz on May 27, 2010, 09:00:50 Same on FGW for Bristol to Portsmouth. ^133.50 for a 1st class single (compared to ^32.50 for the cheapest standard single). Not quite sure how you got that fare Brucey, I have only ever seen First Class fares shown on parts of that route if you travel on the SWT WAT to BRI 159s. You can do that whole (direct) route first class: split tickets and change at Salisbury, using SWT all the way. First class single BRI to SAL ^32.50 First class single SAL to PMS ^29.90 Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: JayMac on May 27, 2010, 10:00:07 Avantix NFM 05 (yes I know, slightly out of date) shows the fare Brucey mentioned. Double checked with EastCoast and it gives the option to travel on any direct train from BRI to PMS/PMH with that 1st class fare. If you force EastCoast booking engine to show slower routes it throws up the odd service with a change at Havant onto a SWT service. It also offers the 1541, changing at Bristol Parkway, Reading and Basingstoke!!! But even that option is Standard Class only to BPW! Then there's the 2150 which suggests changing at Reading and Guildford......
The trainline throws up the direct Standard only options as well as changing at Bath Spa from a 1st Class conveying HST onto the following Pompey service. It even gives this option with the SWT Bristol to Waterloo 1310 service, when it would be more sensible to stay on the SWT service and change at Salisbury and Southampton onto other 1st class conveying services. Still you're right about the split, moonrakerz. But Pay ^133.50 and it appears you can go a very long way round if you so desire - Routeing Guide agrees. Same applies to the BRI-PMS/PMH Anytime and Off Peak fares routed 'NOT LONDON'. Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: super tm on May 27, 2010, 10:24:12 From The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rail-firms-accused-over-missing--firstclass-seats-1983916.html): Quote In another case, Which? discovered that First Capital Connect charges 63 per cent more for single first-class fares between Luton Airport Parkway station and Wimbledon in south-west London. This line also has no first-class service. The train company told Which?: "The ticket is available because you can travel first-class for parts of your journey to Wimbledon if you choose." However this would involve getting off at St Pancras, walking to the Underground, taking a 12-minute ride to Vauxhall at a cost of ^4 and getting back on the train again. Just checked the fares manual and this ticket is routed any permitted with the maltese cross symbol. So you could if you wanted take east midlands train to St Pancras which does have first class and then the underground all included in the price. So Which has got that wrong and you dont need to purchase a further ticket. What you have to remember is that tickets have to be available to cover all circumstances. It may be only one time in 1000000 that someone wants to go first class from Luton to St Pancras. If that option was not available Which would be putting out a press release along the lines of Businessman refused first class ticket ! Which are just getting themselves some free publicity. Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: Btline on May 27, 2010, 14:59:56 Why has the press published this as if this a new and shocking thing? ???
Many phantom 1st fares have existed for years on many routes! And at least in the e.g. they give in the article, a 1st route is ACTUALLY available! Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: inspector_blakey on May 27, 2010, 16:14:41 What you have to remember is that tickets have to be available to cover all circumstances. It may be only one time in 1000000 that someone wants to go first class from Luton to St Pancras. I understand what you're saying completely, the problem is that there doesn't seem to be much consistency. Just to pull an example out of the hat from a bit of local knowledge, there are no first-class fares between Swansea and points west of Carmarthen. Now, given that HSTs to Pembroke Dock only run on summer Saturdays, anyone who wanted to travel first class on those trains could be charged a weekend first supplement. However, all year there's at least one HST each weekday in both directions between SWA and CMN so the bulk of a journey to, say, Whitland could be made in first class and yet no fare is available! Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 27, 2010, 21:23:21 From the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10170185.stm
Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: paul7575 on May 27, 2010, 23:13:41 They also seem to be talking out their hats about having to pay extra to use the underground. The any permitted fare will allow cross London transfer. Not everyone is daft enough to do the whole journey on the stopping FCC anyway - two separate FCC services Luton > Blackfriars > Wimbledon would be a perfectly viable route, and to cap it all the NR online planner for a random date next week, mid day, produces 5 routes none of which use the direct stopping service.
I'm sure there are examples all over the country where the planners would come up with similar. Taken to extremes you should cancel every First class day travelcard fare and equivalent seasons, because the LU legs don't have first. Paul Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: Glovidge on May 30, 2010, 17:42:44 Why has the press published this as if this a new and shocking thing? ??? Cos Which magazine have covered it. I wasn't aware of these phantom 1st class fares until I heard the news on the radio. Its disgraceful and amounts to fraudulent practice imho. And train companies complain about fare dodgers when some of them undertake dubious procedures like this? Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: paul7575 on May 30, 2010, 17:52:13 I wasn't aware of these phantom 1st class fares until I heard the news on the radio. Its disgraceful and amounts to fraudulent practice imho. And train companies complain about fare dodgers when some of them undertake dubious procedures like this? But they aren't 'phantom fares' as you put it - try reading through some of the comments above. If you put Luton - Wimbledon into the Network Rail jouney planner you'll see that the recommended train is EMT to St Pancras, then underground, then SWT. Luton - St Pancras is still the majority of the journey, as Wimbledon is well inside the London zones. If you take Which's logic to the extreme, every First Class fare, season and travelcard which includes onward travel to inner London destinations should be abolished because LU do not offer first class... Paul Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: Btline on May 30, 2010, 23:37:47 Exactly, the whole point is that that these fares have existed for ages, but when the press actually see this, they use a cr*p example!!!
Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: Mookiemoo on May 30, 2010, 23:42:05 You can buy a newportbro Ludlow fc fair - or at least you used to - o haven't checked recently
Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: brompton rail on May 31, 2010, 17:06:16 Perhaps more noteworthy is that some journeys that are quite feasible by First Class don't in fact have a First Class fare.
Doncaster to Manchester is available by 2 routings. One via Sheffield / Stockport which does offer First Class Fares even though TPE only First Class fares are much cheaper than Anytime tickets (on which the alternative journey is via XC (First) and EM Trains (no First). The second route is via Huddersfield, which includes going via Leeds. No through trains and no First Class fares. However there are generally 2 East Coast trains per hour Doncaster to Leeds and 4 TPE trains per hour Leeds to Manchester, all of which offer First Class accommodation. Wierd. I Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: Glovidge on May 31, 2010, 18:36:10 While my use of the word "phantom" may be incorrect and the comments in the thread are more than valid, to a layperson passenger like me who just generally wants to get from A to B in the quickest and most comfortable manner possible I find it at best disingenious that train companies are able to sell tickets on journeys that dont have dedicated first-class services.
Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: thetrout on June 01, 2010, 11:31:19 One that is noteworth is Westbury - Pewsey, which is only operated by HST's conveying 1st... Yet when I last checked there was no FC fares available on that route...!
Another one is Frome - Westbury, 3 trains a day with First Class, yet no FC Fare... Also Plymouth - Hayle doesn't have 1st class return, you have to buy to St Erth - which is available Yet Menheniot - Liskeard does have a FC Fare available for a journey that is even shorter than Frome - Westbury Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: LiskeardRich on June 02, 2010, 00:02:13 Yet Menheniot - Liskeard does have a FC Fare available for a journey that is even shorter than Frome - Westbury and how many HSTs stop at menheniot? thought it was mainly 150/153s that stop there?Title: Re: Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats Post by: super tm on June 02, 2010, 07:52:41 With the old ticketing system if there was no first class fare showing for a journey then you could create one by taking the standard day or standard return price and adding 50%. This was helpful as it meant you did not need to have fares in the system for little journeys where there might only be one train a day and the demand would not be that high for a first class fare. It also helped to cut down the size of the paper based fares manual.
The old ticket issuing system did not have a problem with this as the memory of the machines was low so many fares prices had to be entered manually. Of course mistakes could then be made and tickets could be issued for the incorrect price. Management did not like this especially if the ticket was sold for a lower price. ATOC had a department that would invoice the TOC invloved for the difference so the TOC would lose money. When the ticket machines were upgraded (on train from sportis to advantix) it was decided that if a fare was not in the system then you could not issue it. So now you have the situation that if a first class fare does not exists then you can not sell it. What usually happens is that someone finds out about this for a particular journey - starts travelling first and offering to upgrade knowing full well there is no such ticket. On train staff will then feedback to their managers and in the next fares round a first class fare will be created for that journey. Quite often then the passenger will stop making the journey ;D This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |