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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: Chris from Nailsea on May 26, 2010, 12:12:01



Title: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 26, 2010, 12:12:01
From the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/7765036/New-railway-carriages-shelved-because-of-spending-squeeze.html):

Quote
Hundreds of railway carriages intended to ease overcrowding on some of Britain^s busiest lines have fallen victim to the first tranche of coalition cuts.
The Department for Transport, which has to save ^683 million by the end of March, has shelved plans to pay for new rolling stock.
Labour had promised 1,300 new carriages to help the railway industry cope with soaring demand for train travel, which has reached levels unseen since the immediate post war years.
According to a Parliamentary written answer earlier this year 380 of the carriages were in service and another 311 on order, leaving 691 outstanding.
The Daily Telegraph understands however, that these are now unlikely be delivered, especially with the Government braced for even more spending cuts later in the year.
There could be more bad news for passengers with the refurbishment of 10 major railway stations ordered by Lord Adonis, the previous Transport Secretary, also being ditched as Network Rail tries to find ^100 million of savings.
The loss of the carriages alarmed Anthony Smith, chief executive of the consumer group, Passenger Focus. ^We need to see the detail about where efficiency savings and cuts are being made to the railway, but passengers travelling on busy, overcrowded services during peak times will be disappointed by news that promised new carriages have fallen by the way,^ he said.
Meanwhile a spokesman for the Association of Train Operating Companies added: ^This announcement is hardly surprising, but it will be disappointing news for passengers in those parts of the country waiting for much-needed new rolling stock. We hope this represents only a temporary pause in investment in new vehicles and that Government uses the opportunity to work with the industry to develop a more effective way of providing passengers with new trains. The best way to get value for money in obtaining new trains would be to give train companies a greater role in ordering their own rolling stock. This would get things done quicker and cheaper, ensure that the right rolling stock gets to the right places at the right time and would give passengers and taxpayers the best deal. We recognise the need for austerity in the current economic climate. But with demand for rail travel expected to double in the next 30 years, public commitment to investment needs to be sustained, together with focused reform to get more from every pound spent on rail.^


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on May 26, 2010, 18:47:48
well thats a surprise


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: Henry on May 27, 2010, 08:07:22

  Not good news for Devon/Cornwall.
 
  Will the over-worked 143,142,150 units still be fit for service in 10/15 years time ?

  HST's 45 years old ?  Will electrification still go ahead ?

  I have visions of Mumbai - ( if I sit on the roof of a 150 will there be sufficient head room in the tunnel).


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: eightf48544 on May 27, 2010, 13:53:44
Something on You and Yours today Tony Miles Modern railways.

Interesting point he made is tha it's not clear if the thameslink new trains purchase is included in the cuts. He pointed ot that the passengers on that line who are facing massive disruption with the rebuild of Blackfriars are not going to be too happy if they don't get their 24 trains an hour through Farringdon they were promised.

Especialy as it would be around 2015 and the next general election, my addition.

Also that some rolling stock is becoming life expired and subject to corrosion what would happen if there was an accident with this stock and it was found age was a factor in causing death and injuries.


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: caliwag on May 27, 2010, 14:17:07
The presenter, at theend of the interview, confirmed that the new Thameslink trains were cancelled as well, and therefore that would have a knock-on effect in Greater Manchester...so there we have it.  More than happy to have 125s for the next 10-15 years. With a few paint jobs, the travelling public will never notice.


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on May 27, 2010, 19:15:51
but is this part of the governments aim of longer franchises to promote more investment from the toc's ? i cant really see them investing money in new trains tho even with a longer term

how many mk 2's are in storage maybee were going for a national heritage railway??


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: woody on May 27, 2010, 20:15:55
Given that the USAF B-52 first entered service in June 1955 and is expected to remain in service until 2045 it should be economically feasable to keep the venerable HST going for a while yet with the necessary re-engineering ie power doors,retension tanks and power car upgrades to the electric transmission(bigger alternator and AC traction motors) to use more of the available horsepower from the currently de-rated MTU diesel engine.


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: Electric train on May 27, 2010, 20:59:56
GWML electrification is a Network Rail funded project, there is public money involved but that is not the principle funding.  NR is reliant on the Government acting as guarantor of the loan NR will be seeking.

However the electrification of the GWML is only feasibly if there are trains to use it


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: caliwag on May 27, 2010, 22:25:56
From the Rail news...confusion reigns. Have to say the R4 presenter on "You and Yours" did seem to be quoting an official statement.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2010/05/27-no-decision-on-thameslink-rolling.html


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: onthecushions on May 28, 2010, 11:19:44
GWML electrification is a Network Rail funded project, there is public money involved but that is not the principle funding.  NR is reliant on the Government acting as guarantor of the loan NR will be seeking.

However the electrification of the GWML is only feasibly if there are trains to use it

....and the Oxford- and Newbury- bits depend on cascaded (remember that word?) class 319's, which must presumably now soldier on at Thameslink/FCC, if there are to be no replacements....

The 4 North West wirings also depend on this cascade, so 5 steps forward and 5 steps back.

Merrie England,

OTC


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: Electric train on May 28, 2010, 15:35:20
GWML electrification is a Network Rail funded project, there is public money involved but that is not the principle funding.  NR is reliant on the Government acting as guarantor of the loan NR will be seeking.
However the electrification of the GWML is only feasibly if there are trains to use it
....and the Oxford- and Newbury- bits depend on cascaded (remember that word?) class 319's, which must presumably now soldier on at Thameslink/FCC, if there are to be no replacements....
The 4 North West wirings also depend on this cascade, so 5 steps forward and 5 steps back.
Merrie England,
OTC
Thameslink trains I am sure will be replaced, its where the old ones will be cascaded to that will effect GWML.  I know people in the Thameslink program they are already having to review (ie downsize the expectations) for key output 2 which includes the remodeling of London Bridge and Borough Market etc and the platform extensions further out from London and power supply upgrading


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: ChrisB on May 29, 2010, 14:55:13
....and the Oxford- and Newbury- bits depend on cascaded (remember that word?) class 319's, which must presumably now soldier on at Thameslink/FCC, if there are to be no replacements....

I don't think that's correct - please state the source of your statement. Oxford for sure was getting the IEP stock....


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: willc on May 29, 2010, 15:57:56
I don't believe DafT ever got beyond just broad-brush statements as to where stock was meant to be used, but my interpretation was IEP was meant for Oxford expresses and Cotswold Line (replacing HSTs and some 166 workings) with 319s for the stopping services south of Oxford.


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: Electric train on May 29, 2010, 17:17:07
....and the Oxford- and Newbury- bits depend on cascaded (remember that word?) class 319's, which must presumably now soldier on at Thameslink/FCC, if there are to be no replacements....

I don't think that's correct - please state the source of your statement. Oxford for sure was getting the IEP stock....
319's and electrification were / are to replace the 165 local and semi fasts between Padd and Oxford


Title: Costs of train carriage procurement to be reassessed. BBC News (04/06/2010)
Post by: JayMac on June 04, 2010, 05:38:58
From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10233884.stm).

Quote
An "urgent reappraisal" of the government's train carriage procurement programme has been ordered by Transport Secretary Philip Hammond.

He said each project will be "rigorously re-assessed" to ensure it offers value for money for taxpayers.

The Department for Transport (DfT) must find ^683m in savings.

Meanwhile, a National Audit Office (NAO) report said plans for increasing rail capacity may not provide value for money and should be reviewed.

These fears were expressed because costs, particularly of rail carriages, had risen at the same time as the recession had reduced the DfT projections of passenger demand.

The number of journeys taken on Britain's rail network has almost doubled in the last 10 years.

Some 1,300 new carriages were promised by the Labour government by 2012 to deal with overcrowding.

Passenger predictions
 
By March this year, 526 had already been delivered, but it is thought that only about another 100 will be ready over the next two years.

But the NAO has questioned whether they are actually needed since it says predicted passengers numbers may not be accurate because of the recession.

The transport secretary welcomed the NAO report, which he said "reinforces" his "concerns about Labour's announced new carriage procurement programme".

"Since that announcement was made in 2007 the growth in passenger numbers has not materialised and costs have soared, leaving Labour's plans in tatters," he said.

'Drive costs down'
 
Mr Hammond said the government had inherited a situation in which, according to the NAO, "significantly fewer new trains will be delivered for the money committed than were promised to passengers".

Meanwhile, NAO head Amyas Morse said the DfT had "used a broadly sound framework to develop plans for adding capacity to the rail network" but they had been developed "in a stronger economic climate".

But he went on: "We believe that it needs to implement these plans flexibly in light of current conditions, in order to protect value for money, and to be continually looking to drive down the costs of rail improvement works."


Title: Re: Costs of train carriage procurement to be reassessed. BBC News (04/06/2010)
Post by: brompton rail on June 04, 2010, 09:20:06
So, no electrification (see separate thread for Network Rail's Ian Couchers comments) and no new trains because they both are too expensive and demand for rail travel has slowed down. It seems that demand into Central London has slowed (where all the new trains have gone anyway) but out in the sticks (West Country or North Country sticks) it doesn't seem to be slowing despite these 'stick' people not getting new (or even "pre owned" trains. Get used to other peoples armpits!


Title: Re: Costs of train carriage procurement to be reassessed. BBC News (04/06/2010)
Post by: Super Guard on June 04, 2010, 11:32:42
Don't worry, all these civil servants that cannot travel first class any more will soon get tired of the standard class "squeeze" and report back that more coaches are needed asap  ;)


Title: Re: Costs of train carriage procurement to be reassessed. BBC News (04/06/2010)
Post by: Electric train on June 04, 2010, 17:29:34
This I am afraid is the DoT civil servants true colours they do not like rail and as soon as there is Tory(ish) government they will spike the minister, next you'll hear we need more motorways


Title: Re: Costs of train carriage procurement to be reassessed. BBC News (04/06/2010)
Post by: Timmer on June 04, 2010, 17:46:12
More on this from a FGW point of view from the Bath Chronicle website:
http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/news/Train-carriages-review-Government-spending-curbs/article-2270586-detail/article.html

Quote
Extra train carriages to ease overcrowding on First Great Western^s rail services face the chop after ministers ordered an ^urgent reappraisal^. The last Labour government promised an additional 1,300 carriages across the country three years ago, of which 647 have already been brought in or are on order. The remainder have now been put on ice after the Department for Transport was told to slash ^683 million from its budget as part a raft of in-year savings totalling ^6.2 billion. Of the 1,300 carriages, First Great Western was due to receive 52 but only 12 of those were destined for services in the South West.

Quote
A First Great Western spokesman said: ^We recognise there are capacity issues in some areas of our network and we will continue our discussions with the Department for Transport about how to best manage capacity in the current economic climate.

^First Great Western secured a long term lease earlier this year from the Department for Transport for 30 vehicles for the west of England, which will maintain current capacity through to the end of its franchise.

^These are not new vehicles, but will replace vehicles currently on short term lease from Arriva Trains Wales, Northern and other operators. These trains will be returned to those train operators as a result of securing the long term lease.

^Our understanding is the original additional 52 vehicles (40 for London Thames Valley, and 12 for the west of England) proposed by 2014, stated in the White Paper, will not now be guaranteed.^


Title: Re: Costs of train carriage procurement to be reassessed. BBC News (04/06/2010)
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 07, 2010, 22:46:36
From the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284018/Ripping-seats-ease-crowding-trains-suggests-public-pending-watchdog.html?ito=feeds-newsxml):

Quote
Ripping out seats would ease crowding on trains, suggests public pending watchdog

Removing seating and allowing more passengers to stand would help ease congestion on packed trains, the National Audit Office suggested today.
The public spending watchdog's report on rail passenger capacity recommended a 'reconfiguration' of carriages.
The idea will appeal to train companies because it would be a cost effective way to transport more people but is likely to anger passengers.
They would be reluctant to pay high train fares for a journey where they are even more unlikely to get a seat.
The suggestion also sparked fury from the unions, who claimed it would reduce trains to 'slow-moving, overcrowded cattle trucks'.
And it dismayed environmental campaigners, who claim it will make train travel less popular and conflicts with the coalition's pledge to create a green economy.
Richard Hebditch, campaigns director of the Campaign for Better Transport, said: 'When they were in opposition, the Conservatives rightly pushed the Labour government to deliver in full the 1,300 carriages which we need to tackle overcrowding. We still need those extra carriages. Our roads are still congested and we're not going to get people to switch to using the train if they can't get a seat.'
Bob Crow, general secretary of the RMT transport union added: 'All the warm words of this new Government on a high-speed, green future for expanded rail travel are evaporating before our very eyes as transport is seen as a soft target for early cuts with the private companies given a green light to continue milking profits and subsidies which could be used to invest for the future. There is no question that this systematic undermining of rail budgets and rail safety makes another major disaster an inevitability and we will take whatever action is required to protect jobs, safe working conditions and the safety of the travelling public.'
The NAO report said: 'Reconfiguration of carriages can provide additional standing and overall capacity by removing some seats and changing their layout. The Department did not evaluate the cost-effectiveness of reconfiguring existing carriages, or vary its calculations of the carrying capacity of carriages to allow for high density stock. Transport for London has estimated that high density stock could accommodate up to 30 per cent more passengers than conventional stock.'
The suggestion, which also angered unions, could gain traction because Government spending cuts have already seen plans for 600 new carriages put on hold.
Transport Secretary Philip Hammond today ordered an 'urgent reappraisal' of the government's train carriage procurement programme.
He said each project would be 'rigorously re-assessed' to ensure it offered value for money for taxpayers.
In its report, the NAO warned Labour's plans to increase rail capacity might not give value for money and should be reassessed.
Labour promised 1,300 new carriages by 2012 to address overcrowding. By this March, only 526 had been delivered. It is thought only another 100 will be ready in time.
But the NAO questions whether they are needed because demand for train travel has fallen due to the recession while the cost of providing more carriages has risen.
The previous government's measures aimed at increasing capacity will not deliver as much as promised, it concluded.
It predicted it will be 15 per cent lower in London, with 99,000 extra passengers in the morning rush hour, and 25,500 fewer travelling into other English cities.
The report pointed out that passenger transport bosses in northern England feel they have been let down by the Government.
Demand for train travel has risen sharply in the past 15 years. There were 0.74billion journeys in 1994/5 but had soared to 1.27billion in 2008/9.
Mr Hammond said: 'The growth in passenger numbers has not materialised and costs have soared, leaving Labour's plans in tatters. The last Government claimed it had abolished boom and bust and seemed to believe that taxpayers' money grew on trees. This Government will act more responsibly. We inherit a situation where, according to the NAO, significantly fewer new trains will be delivered for the money committed than were promised to passengers. I announced on May 24 a pause in the rolling stock programme. This report makes clear that we need to go further and on the back of its findings I have ordered an urgent reappraisal of the whole programme. We will rigorously re-assess the business case for each procurement in the light of the changed circumstances, reviewing all the options, and will ensure that we deliver value for money for taxpayers.'
Amyas Morse, head of the National Audit Office, said: 'The Department for Transport used a broadly sound framework to develop plans for adding capacity to the rail network. These plans were developed in a stronger economic climate. However, we believe that it needs to implement these plans flexibly in light of current conditions, in order to protect value for money, and to be continually looking to drive down the costs of rail improvement works.'


Title: Re: Costs of train carriage procurement to be reassessed. BBC News (04/06/2010)
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 08, 2010, 11:46:20
Ripping out seats would ease crowding on trains, suggests public pending watchdog

A public pending watchdog.  Hmmm...  :-\


Title: Re: Costs of train carriage procurement to be reassessed. BBC News (04/06/2010)
Post by: devon_metro on June 08, 2010, 16:23:55
Ripping out seats would ease crowding on trains, suggests public pending watchdog

A public pending watchdog.  Hmmm...  :-\

I hear that the price of the letter 's' has risen considerably recently  ;)


Title: Re: New railway carriages shelved because of spending squeeze
Post by: caliwag on June 17, 2010, 09:23:00
A relevent article...talk of hybrids :-\

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/colin-walton-railway-man-trying-to-keep-bombardier-on-track-2002578.html



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